My Great Great Grandfather Patricio Madera son of Calixto Madera/Maria Dimas De La Paz Huejuquilla, Jalisco, Mexico

My Great Grandfather is name Calixto Madera who is the son of Patricio Madera and Maria Dimas De La Paz. Aproximate birth is 1856 in Rancho Jimulco? of Huejuquilla, Jalisco, Mexico.

Comments

1828 Census (Padrones) Rancho De Los Maderas - (Huejuquilla El Alto, Jalisco, Mexico)

I have gone to the LDS family history center and scrolled through the microfilm of Padrones 1828 of the village of Huejuquilla El Alto, Jalisco, Mexico and all the surrounding Ranchos (So many of them

Comments

Comment

Antonio:

In the Census:

D. Marcelo Madera

Da. Juana Ramirez

The D. stands for the title "Don" and the Da. stands for "Dona"

Can someone tell me what is significance of those titles back then in 1828?

Comment

I usually don't consider Don a title, more a style. Usually back then
it was only reserved for the "well known", local elite, church
clergymen, hidalgos or nobles. I think the word hijosdalgo is perfect
hijo de algo "son of something." Someone who was esteemed or
respected in any case.

In your case with your ancestors they owned the Rancho de Madera.
So they belonged to the land-owning class.

I hope this helps a bit.

Daniel Mendez Camino

Comment

S = soltero/a (single)

D = Divorciadoa (divorced)

Emilie
Port Orchard, WA

> To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> From: zacatecano020@hotmail.com
> Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2011 19:33:42 -0700
> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] 1828 Census (Padrones) Rancho De Los Maderas - (Huejuquilla El Alto, Jalisco, Mexico)
>
> I have gone to the LDS family history center and scrolled through the microfilm of Padrones 1828 of the village of Huejuquilla El Alto, Jalisco, Mexico and all the surrounding Ranchos (So many of them) and nearby Hacienda San Antonio De Padua, Tenzompa, San Nicolas.
>
> I already have done my family research back in the 1990's, wrote down dates, families, locations in my notebook which I still have. Also made copies back then. But I threw those copies away, but I still have my notebooks.
>
> I re-ordered a microfilm that I specifically want to see a Census of a Rancho where my Madera Family is at and made copies just recently and will explain who is on it. There are a lot of Ranchos and also the census of Huejuquilla. I did not have the time to make copies of all of them as also there was someone using the only Digital Copier. So I managed to make copies of Rancho De Los Maderas.
>
> Here is "Rancho De Los Maderas" 1828:
>
> http://img844.imageshack.us/img844/8408/ranchodelosmaderahuejuq.jpg
> http://img543.imageshack.us/img543/8614/unledlw.jpg
> http://img856.imageshack.us/img856/7341/unled1lp.jpg
>
>
> NEED HELP IN WHAT ABBREVIATIONS MEAN? Also it lists age.
>
> C = Casado
> S = ?
> P = Parbulo?
> D = ?
>
> In that first page, "Marcelo Madera" is the grandfather of Maria Clemencia Madera who is the wife of my great great grandfather Calixto Madera (Rancho Jimulco) and the father of Benito Madera - (Benito Madera is the father of Maria Clemencia Madera)
>
> From my notebook - Marcelo Madera was baptized in 1780 by his parents Lasaro Madera and Micaela Perales. Residence is Rancho (Rincon De Los Maderas. Married Juana Ramirez
>
> Benito Madera - was baptized by his Father Marcelo Madera and mother Juana Ramirez in 1836. Residence Rancho De Los Maderas. Benito Madera was married to Maria Estanislao Munoz
>
> Maria Clemencia Madera is the daughter of Benito Madera/Maria Estanisloa Munoz - Residence Rancho (Rincon De Los Maderas.
>
> Calixto Madera (residence Rancho Jimulco) is the husband of Maria Clemencia Madera and parents of Antonio Madera Madera.
>
>
>
>
>
> Here is the title page as proof of Padrones of Huejuquilla El Alto 1828:
>
> http://img641.imageshack.us/img641/5011/scan0002c.jpg

VILLALOBOS VELAZQUEZ de Lagos

Comments

Comment

En la gran mayoría de las actas a los hijos naturales no mencionan al padre y cuando los padres no están casados nunca mencionan al hijo como legítimo. Rafael Villalobos Rodríguez esta claramente mencionado como hijo legítimo de Miguel Villalobos Velázquez por lo cual no debería de existir una duda. https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1951-24005-15328-29?cc=1919702…

Me gustaría que opinaran Miguel Beltrán, Bill Figueroa y Celestino Villalobos sobre esto asunto.

Armando

Comment

Armando muchas gracias por tomarte el tiempo para contestar mi pregunta quedare en espera haber que opinan los demás foristas al respecto. Mientras tanto seguiré buscando información sobre este pariente (sobre todo algun dato sobre su muerte) así como sus hermanos hijos de Bernardo Villalobos e Ygnacia Velazquez.

Comment

Acabo de leer el artículo 52 del Código Civil para el Estado de Jalisco (que entró en vigencia en 1933) el cual establece que:

"En los casos de hijos nacidos fuera de matrimonio, además de los datos de los padres que concurrieren al acto, se harán constar en el acta, los abuelos respecto del padre o de la madre que presenten al hijo. Queda absolutamente prohibido asentar en el acta que el hijo es natural, nacido fuera de matrimonio o hijo de padre o madre desconocidos."

Por esto quiero pensar que aunque un hijo fuese nacido fuera del matrimonio, no se podía asentar que era hijo natural, o al menos así aparenta ser de acuerdo al código en cita. Por otra parte, este código entró en vigencia el año citado por lo que no se si anterior a él se aplicaba algo similar. Lo cual me genera duda considerando que la fecha de nacimiento de Rafael Villalobos fue en 1909 y de acuerdo a su acta habia fallecido. Veremos que sigue saliendo...

Comment

Acabo de leer el artículo 52 del Código Civil para el Estado de Jalisco (que entró en vigencia en 1933) el cual establece que:

"En los casos de hijos nacidos fuera de matrimonio, además de los datos de los padres que concurrieren al acto, se harán constar en el acta, los abuelos respecto del padre o de la madre que presenten al hijo. Queda absolutamente prohibido asentar en el acta que el hijo es natural, nacido fuera de matrimonio o hijo de padre o madre desconocidos."

Por esto quiero pensar que aunque un hijo fuese nacido fuera del matrimonio, no se podía asentar que era hijo natural, o al menos así aparenta ser de acuerdo al código en cita. Por otra parte, este código entró en vigencia el año citado por lo que no se si anterior a él se aplicaba algo similar. Lo cual me genera duda considerando que la fecha de nacimiento de Rafael Villalobos fue en 1909 y de acuerdo a su acta habia fallecido. Veremos que sigue saliendo...

Comment

Las leyes después de 1909 no tienen nada que ver con el nacimiento de Rafael. Antes de 1933 no era prohibido asentar a un niño como hijo natural. Hay bastantes casos que lo comprueba. Además en el acta que sigue al de Rafael Villalobos mencionan al hijo como natural. De haber muerto Miguel Villalobos antes del embarazo de la madre de Rafael le hubieron apuntado de igual manera.

Armando

Comment

Gracias por la aclaracion Armando. Te comento que encontre el acta de bautizo de Rafael Villalobos con el link que me pasaste. Ahi no dice que su padre hubiese fallecido. No se que quiera decir eso en relacion con al acta de Nacimiento ya que el bautizo fue dos meses despues del registro civil. Saludos.

San Diego De Alejandria

Andres Fonseca and Petra Rodrigues had several children born in San Diego De Alejandria between 1819 and 1831 and maybe earlier although those records are missing.

family search website problems

Anyone else having problems with loading images from Family Search? Have they changes their website setup or something?

Denise

Comments

Comment

The website looks OK again...I am not sure what happened - a technical issue of some sort. Denise

Comment

Denise,

I am not sure what they did exactly, but about 6 months ago, they changed (improved, they say) the structure of their database rendering. So, any link I saved as part of a source citation from that time period or before is not available (and not obviously modifyable to the new address with a simply directory change). For the transcribed data for marriages, baptisms, 1930 Census, etc., I simply redo the search and recopy the web address to the new one when I come accross one of these records (the search routine itself has not changed). For images, if you have not saved the actual image, I suspect you may have to search it again and recopy the web address - I have been saving all of my scanned images locally to my hard drive, so I don't bother.

Jerome Stofleth

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Thanks for the info! This past summer I systematically started doing notes in Word, (instead of handwritten in a spiral notebook) and of course I save both an image and the link. The Romo notes I filed here are just my raw notes with the images deleted...If only I had done it this from the beginning!

Regards,
Denise

My Trip To San José

Joseph, I wish you a safe and pleasant trip and hope and pray your brother
recovers quickly.  God Bless.

 Ann M.

Comments

Comment

Joseph,
Either day works for me, whatever day the majority of the other people are available to meet will be just fine. Just let me know the day and the time and I know the place already. Can't wait to meet up with you and with other members of Nuestros Ranchos.

Abrazos,
Alicia

________________________________
From: Joseph Puentes
To: announce@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thursday, September 6, 2012 4:37 AM
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] My Trip To San José

I’ll be travelling to San José to visit my brother as he recovers from a
very serious illness. The critical part of his illness is past but he has a
long road ahead to full recovery.

If it works out I plan on having lunch with Alicia Carrillo in San José
sometime during the 2nd week of October maybe the 11th or 12th if she is
free on one of those dates. I will be taking her to lunch at a small Vegan
restaurant The Happy Bamboo (http://www.happybamboo.com/). Let me know if
anyone else would like to join us and I’ll try to firm up the date.

Note: this will not be a genealogy related event just lunch with a friend or
two.

Joseph

Joseph Puentes

Clean@h2opodcast.com

http://h2opodcast.com

Comment

Joseph
Glad to hear your brother is on the way to recovery. I wish I were in San
Jose. I would love to join you and Alice. California is always on the
move!
Mickey

In a message dated 9/6/2012 6:37:58 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
makas@nc.rr.com writes:

I’ll be travelling to San José to visit my brother as he recovers from a
very serious illness. The critical part of his illness is past but he has a
long road ahead to full recovery.

If it works out I plan on having lunch with Alicia Carrillo in San José
sometime during the 2nd week of October maybe the 11th or 12th if she is
free on one of those dates. I will be taking her to lunch at a small Vegan
restaurant The Happy Bamboo (http://www.happybamboo.com/). Let me know if
anyone else would like to join us and I’ll try to firm up the date.

Note: this will not be a genealogy related event just lunch with a friend
or
two.

Joseph

Joseph Puentes

Clean@h2opodcast.com

http://h2opodcast.com

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Help reading a record

I found a baptism record for my 6th great grandfather, Joseph Feliz Almaguer born 11 Dec 1711 in Lagos de Moreno, Jalisco, Mexico, but can't make heads or tails of the writing.

Comments

Comment

Here is a transcription:
Joseph Feliz, español
En la Villa de los Lagos en onze dias del mes de Diziembre de setecientos y onze años Baptise y puse los oleos y chrisma a Joseph Feliz, español, hijo legitimo de Agustin Almag.. y de Franca [Francisca] ..mila Lopez, españoles y vecinos de esta villa. Fueron PP. [Padrinos] Manuel Lo(pez) y Maria Ximenez, españoles y vecinos de esta villa a quienes advertí de su parentesco y cognacion espiritual y lo firmé.
Ba. Miguel Gonzalez de los Barrios

The mother's middle name is probably Camila, as someone else suggested, though the small "ca" belongs to the abbreviation for Francisca.

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This is a real challenge! All I could get was hijo lexitimo, and the first name of the first padrino mentioned: Manuel. Could the mother's name be Francisa (abbreviated?) Lopez and Manuel's last name also Lopez? Padrina Maria Ximenez?
Hope someone else will take a shot at this...

Regards,
Denise

Comment

IN THE VILLA IN LAGOS, 11 DECEMBER 1711 BAUTISE and put the holy oils and baptism TO JOSEPH FELIZ SPANISH legitimate Son AGUSTÍN ALMAGUER LOPEZ AND CAMILA FRANCISCA LÓPEZ, NEIGHBORS SAID BY VILLA SPONSORS MANUEL LOPEZ AND MARIA XIMENEZ NEIGHBORS WHO ARE WARNED THAT VILLA THE SPIRITUAL RELATIONSHIP AND THE SIGN

EN LA VILLA DE LAGOS EN 11 DE DICIEMBRE DE 1711 BAUTISE Y PUSE LOS SANTOS OLEOS Y BAUTISMO A JOSEPH FELIZ ESPAÑOL HIJO LEGITIMO DEAGUSTÍN ALMAGUER Y FRANCISCA CAMILA LÓPEZ VECINOS DE DICHA VILLA POR PADRINOS MANUEL LOPEZ Y MARIA XIMENEZ VECINOS DE DICHA VILLA A QUIENES ADVERTI DEL PARENTEZCO ESPIRITUAL Y LO FIRME

Javier González López Portillo

Comment

Hello Mr. Gonzalez

My Spanish is not that great, but the English translation of this part looks a little confusing...

VECINOS DE DICHA VILLA POR PADRINOS MANUEL LOPEZ Y MARIA XIMENEZ VECINOS DE DICHA VILLA A QUIENES ADVERTI DEL PARENTEZCO ESPIRITUAL Y LO FIRME

Could it be:
Residents of said villa, padrinos (are) Manuel Lopez and Maria Ximenez residents of said villa who were informed of their spiritual responsibility and (it is hereby) signed.

I hope that you or some else can help. There are no doubt many in the Forum with little or no Spanish skills...and we are ever grateful for help from those with Spanish as a first language, especially those with expertise in old Spanish...

Regards
Denise
ps if anyone needs help with Danish (unlikely in this Forum but you never know - some Danes did immigrate to the Americas in the late 1800's), feel free to contact me, Danish is my second language... :)

Comment

Thank you all for helping with this translation. I used the contact tab to send you each a personal thank you but I found out that messages through the contact tab don't always get through.

Comment

The parents seem to be Agustin Almaguer and Francisca ---mila Lopez,
padrinos Manuel Lopez y Maria de Munoz. I'm sure others can provide a more
complete translation. Good Luck.
Raquel Ruiz

On Sun, Sep 2, 2012 at 9:42 AM, wrote:

> I found a baptism record for my 6th great grandfather, Joseph Feliz
> Almaguer born 11 Dec 1711 in Lagos de Moreno, Jalisco, Mexico, but can't
> make heads or tails of the writing. If anyone would be willing to take a
> stab at it and let me know what they think I would really appreciate it. It
> is the first record on the upper left hand side of the page. The link is
> below.
>
> https://familysearch.org/pal:/**MM9.3.1/TH-1-18573-17799-65?**
> cc=1874591&wc=12506714
>
> Thank you all in advance.
>
> I apologize for my previous post with out a topic line
>

notes on Romo, Aguascalientes Sagrario and Aguascalientes Calvillo

I uploaded a doc with names of the Romos I came across while going through marriages of Aguascalientes (Sagrario) and baptisms of Calvillo (late 1700's).

Comments

Comment

Thanks Denise,
There are a lot of Romos in La Villita (near Jalpa) and I've been able to link most of them to Aguascalientes and Calvillo. Often the Romos married Velascos, Loera's, Lopez, Contreras, etc. I've also linked the Medinas of La Villita to Aguascalientes and Calvillo.

One family I'm looking to find is Jose Maria Romo and his wife Gertrudis Gonzalez, who were probably born around 1775. Jose Maria's father was Manuel Romo, who also had Roberta. I haven't established which Romo families were the first to move, so I appreciate you making the file available to all of us.

Arturo

Comment

Thanks Denise. I looked through your document on Romo in Sagrario and found a Romo connection to Guerra - not one I was looking for, but I also have a Romo/Guerra connection in that area that is clearly related - now I just have to do some sleuthing.

Nice job.

Jerry Stofleth

Comment

I wrote "no relation to Nadadores" because I am searching for Manuel Romo from Aguascalientes, who married in Nadadores, and whose descendents moved to San Buenaventura. His father was Don Raphael Romo and mother was Rafaela Aguilar. As far as I know, none of the Romos in these notes relate to Manuel.

Regards
Denise Fastrup

death records of Colotlan, Jalisco

I found this interesting death entry:

Comments

Comment

The wikipedia article on Marcos Escobedo has the following which seems to be relevent:

Marcos Marcelo Escobedo (1784–1833) was a military commander in the Mexican War of Independence. He later became Mayor of Colotlán, Jalisco.

Early life

Marcos Escobedo was born in 1784, son of José Joaquín Escobedo, presumably a descendant of the original Tlaxcaltec colonizers of the region.

Military career

In 1808, he held the title Second Lieutenant in the Spanish army and was governor of the Tlaxcala neighborhood. On November 1, 1808, he declared himself in favor of Mexico's independence from Spain, and along with a priest named Pablo José Calvillo and the indigenous garrisons of the region, put himself at the service of independence leader Miguel Hidalgo.

In January 1811, he and his troops participated in the Battle of the Bridge of Calderón. His troops suffered great losses in the battle and returned to Colotlán to face the troops of Francisco del Real, Juan Lozano, and Sebastián Gallegos, who had occupied the town's square in their absence. In the same month, they faced a battle in Las Canoas with the troops of royalist priest Álvarez known as "El Chicharronero". In April 1811, his troops faced the army of Colonel Pedro Celestino Negrete and were defeated in the Battle of Tierra Blanca. Marcos Escobedo went into hiding for several years after this defeat.

In 1817, he came out of hiding and once again joined the war for independence, fighting battles in the towns of San Andrés, Chalchihuites and Huejuquilla, gaining control of the region for the independence movement. He then joined forces with the armies of Tlaltenango and Jerez and launched a military campaign to take Bolaños and then Tepic.
Late life

On September 27, 1820, Marcos Escobedo organized great festivities in Colotlán to celebrate Mexican independence and the entrance of the independence movement's troops into Mexico City. In 1825, Marcos Escobedo was named Mayor of Colotlán. As mayor, he was charged with subjugating the indigenous groups in the region who opposed the distribution of communal lands. Marcos Escobedo died on August 7, 1833.r

In 1808, he held the title Second Lieutenant in the Spanish army and was governor of the Tlaxcala neighborhood. On November 1, 1808, he declared himself in favor of Mexico's independence from Spain, and along with a priest named Pablo José Calvillo and the indigenous garrisons of the region, put himself at the service of independence leader Miguel Hidalgo.

In January 1811, he and his troops participated in the Battle of the Bridge of Calderón. His troops suffered great losses in the battle and returned to Colotlán to face the troops of Francisco del Real, Juan Lozano, and Sebastián Gallegos, who had occupied the town's square in their absence. In the same month, they faced a battle in Las Canoas with the troops of royalist priest Álvarez known as "El Chicharronero". In April 1811, his troops faced the army of Colonel Pedro Celestino Negrete and were defeated in the Battle of Tierra Blanca. Marcos Escobedo went into hiding for several years after this defeat.

In 1817, he came out of hiding and once again joined the war for independence, fighting battles in the towns of San Andrés, Chalchihuites and Huejuquilla, gaining control of the region for the independence movement. He then joined forces with the armies of Tlaltenango and Jerez and launched a military campaign to take Bolaños and then Tepic.
Late life

On September 27, 1820, Marcos Escobedo organized great festivities in Colotlán to celebrate Mexican independence and the entrance of the independence movement's troops into Mexico City. In 1825, Marcos Escobedo was named Mayor of Colotlán. As mayor, he was charged with subjugating the indigenous groups in the region who opposed the distribution of communal lands. Marcos Escobedo died on August 7, 1833.

George Fulton
Pleasanton, CA

Montoya, Valdez(s), Quintana, Vigil, Martin(es)ez), Duran in New Mexico

Hola Joseph,
I have my grandparents who migrated to New Mexico in 1912.

Comments

Comment

I do, on my mother's side; she was from New Mexico.

Emilie
Port Orchard, WA

> From: makas@nc.rr.com
> To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
> Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2012 07:09:17 -0400
> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Montoya, Valdez(s), Quintana, Vigil, Martin(es)ez), Duran in New Mexico
>
> Does anyone in the group have Montoya, Valdez(s), Quintana, Vigil,
> Martin(es)ez), Duran.
>
> Who migrated to New Mexico? If so I have a contact person for you.
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
>
>
> Joseph
>
>
>
>
>
> Joseph Puentes
>
> Clean@h2opodcast.com
>
> http://h2opodcast.com
>
>
>
>
>

Comment

My wife's maternal line is from Pecos, New Mexico - we have all of those names in the tree. Many of her "Spanish" roots have come through Zacatecas/Aguascalientes. I am excited to dig into that period of the Spanish migrations north and what roots they left behind.

I have a public tree on Ancestry.com, "Stofleth-Azua". You may not be able to see the "living" parts, so start with Federico Vigil and Estafanita Varela (my wifes maternal grandparents) and then expand from there. The direct connection to Mexico is through her paternal grandparents: Joaquin Azua and Domitila Guerra, who hail from Rincon de Romos, AGS.

Jerome Stofleth

Comment

If the resource you are referring to is the Hispanic Genealogical Research Society (HGRS), then I am already aware. However, if it is not, then this is a wonderful resource for anyone with relatives in New Mexico: http://www.hgrc-nm.org/. Follow the links to "Great New Mexico Pedigree Database Rev114 (166,845 NAMES)" and then to "Great New Mexico Pedigree Database". You can then search by name. If you go to the bottom of the page, you can click on "Index", which is a much better way to search. It takes a little getting used to, but what a great resource!

Jerome Stofleth

Help reading the marriage doc.

I can't decode what this document is saying so if anyone one can please help.

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-15188-252-77?cc=1410092&wc=6…

Comments

Comment

It is from the 1600's and difficult to read, but here is what I got:

It states the three times the plans to marry were announced,and then name Nicolas de Armas.
After Nicolas de Armas, looks like esp (espanol) and then something I have never seen before: mocosoltero. So I googled it and moco soltero pops up in other texts and is an old fashioned way of saying handsome single young man.

Likewise it looks like moca doncella (abr. don_a)is whats written after Juana's name, moca doncella also shows up on a google search and means something like beatiful and young (virgin)girl. Doncella I have seen before, and soltero, but not moca/moco. Learned something new!And it looks like Dona (abbreviated) in front of Juanas name.

Nicolas son of:
Miguel de Armas, deceased and Andrea (?) de Avila, desceased..."dicho ciudad" (of said town/city) The word after the abbreviation of difunto and before "dicho" I cannot read.

Dona Juana is either dau or ward of (?) Leonor de Lesalde espanola and Antonio de Robalcaba (caste or nationality which I dont recognize). Possibly deceased (difuntos). There is text here which I cannot decipher, but surely someone used to reading records from this time period would be able to...

Padrinos: Pedro de Ulloa and Dona Josepha de Sepulveda his wife. I think its odd that there's no Don in front of Pedro...

Hope this helps at least a little bit! And I hope someone out there can add more...

Regards
Denise Fastrup

Comment

I was wondering if it is possible to find my ancestor from working forward to backwards from finding the earliest De Armas individual in Mexico and just going from there and see if it leads to my De Armas ancestor if it is possible can you explain to me how to do it?One more thing so this brick wall im having with Juan Amrosio De Armas I think i found his baptism record but i'm not sure if it's really him how can i verify if it's really him here is the link

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-15089-16430-12?cc=1410092&wc…

In reply to by abram101

Comment

It is really fun when you find a match! I get that the father is Nicolas de Armas and the mother is Juana de (cant'read). But what it interesting and exciting is the padrinos are the same ones as for the marriage! Pedro de Ulloa and Josepha de Sepulveda.

Regards
Denise
(ps wish I was having such good luck)

Comment

Denise,

It's really awesome right!?Yes basically the father is Nicolas De Armas and Juana De Lisalde/Carrion/Currion.But i still need to find out if that is really Ambrosio De Armas parents but i have no clue how?Really can i get the link for it?

In reply to by abram101

Comment

Abram

The normal process is to work from the known to the unknown. Going the other way is less productive, in general.

I took a look at the record you cite: if I read it correctly, it is a 1682 baptism of Juan de Armas.

As I recall, your Juan Ambrocio de Armas had at least 6 children, one of whom (Maria Francisca) was baptized 18 Dec 1757, in Nochistlan; there seem not be to baptisms for the others, but they are identified in the marriage records as his children. That would make him 75 years old in 1757. This age would make it pretty unlikely that this Juan and your Juan Ambrocio are the same.

Or said differently, Nicholas de Armas, father of Juan, is not the father of Juan Ambrocio. At best, Nicholas would be a grandfather. Proof is lacking.

If you look at the records of baptisms and marriages for all known descendants of Nicholas de Armas, and some of them show up in the records of your known de Armas ancestors as padrinos, this may imply a relationship. However, by itself, this is not proof.

As previously noted, look in the matrimonial investigations. It is possible some clues may be there, or if you are lucky, you may even find the link you need. A word of caution: the early matrimonial investigations files are not necessarily complete, and may not be in chronological order. This is especially true in the early years.

George Fulton
Pleasanton, CA

Comment

Hi Abram

I agree with Mr. Fulton about working from the known to the uknown.

You have found Nicolas, Juana and son Juan in the late 1600's. That the Nicolas and Juana named in the marriage entry are the same as the Nicolas and Juana in the baptism entry is something supported by the names of the padrinos.

However, you cannot prove that son Juan is identical to your Juan Ambrosio. I know that brick wall all too well!

The best advice is that given by Mr. Fulton - try to find a matrimonial investigation for Juan Ambrosio or someone in Juan Ambrosios family, which I gather you have a certain link to.

Good Luck! (you'll need it)

Denise

Comment

Abram

These are all at the same Family Search location as the baptism, marriage, and death records for Nochistlan. These are the links for the specific films.

1730-32
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-15188-27192-28?cc=1410092&wc…

Apparently there is a gap for 1733, but that is possibly too early, as are likely the 1730-32 records.

1734-38
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-15191-20514-7?cc=1410092&wc=…

1739-49
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-15191-12423-6?cc=1410092&wc=…

1750-59
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-15192-13468-86?cc=1410092&wc…

There also records for 1677-1707, but there is a large gap as the next group is 1730-32. After 1759, there are some gaps in the 1760s, but they seem to cover all the years after that to 1800. I didn't check dates after that.

These records, at least after the earliest years follow a standard form:

Typically, each investigation begins on a new page. Although this is not necessarily true for the earlier records.

Introductory paragraph with the date, location, and some ecclesiatical information.

A paragraph that begins with the groom's name, ethnicity, where he's from, and usually parent's names. If he is a widower, his former wife's name is given; in this case his parents names are usually omitted. Sometimes it will state how long he has been a widower. It gives the bride's name, ethnicity, parent's names; if she was a widow, her former husband's name is given, and then her parents names are usually omitted. This is probably the most valuable part of the document as there may be information here that is not in the marriage record, especially in the early years. The groom apparently signs the statement (or the notary for him).

There will be declaration by the groom (or Pretenso), which repeats much of this, and often will give his age also.

There will be a declaration by the bride (or Pretensa), which is similar to the groom's.

There will be statements of some witnesses; 2 or 3 is typical. The intent of all this is establish that they are not currently married, or if the were married, the former spouse is known to be deceased (sometimes there will be a certificate or statement from the church where he/she is buried). The witnesses will also state that there is no impediment such as consanguinity or affinity. They are of good character, and so on.

There will be a finding of no impediment, and the document will close with an attestation that they were married.

A typical record is 2-3 images (5-6 pages). If there are "problems," the record can be longer.

If the marriage required a dispensation (dispensa), that document may be attached; sometimes, that is only only document for the investigation in the matrimonial investigation book. The dispensa is not the investigation for the dispensation, those documents are with the diocesan records in Guadalajara. The dispensa will state the impediment (eg, 4th degree consanguinity), but will not give the details of the relationship.

The declarations and witness statements all tend to follow a standard pattern. The eclessiatical language adds little of genealogical value.

Once again, these files are not necessarily complete. There are marriages with no extant investigation records, and there are investigation records for couples that you cannot find a marriage record.

George Fulton
Pleasanton, CA

Comment

George,

So for sure this Nicholas De Armas is some how related to my Ambrosio De Armas?I'm taking a pretty good educated guess that this Nicholas De Armas was from Mexticacan then went to Nochistlan. The matrimonial investigation are located in the Guadalajara Dispensas if I'm correct?Ilooked through the Guadalajara Dispensas and found nothing on Ambrosio De Armas.

Comment

This is why trying to work from the unknown to prove a relationship is problematic.

With what we have at the moment, we cannot say that Nicholas de Armas is related to your de Armas family. A similar name in a small town suggests a relationship, but this is a long way from proof.

I did not say that Nicolas de Armas is related. What I said this that his son Juan de Armas is likely not the same person as your Juan Ambrocio de Armas.

I also said that, if related, he (Nicolas) could, at the closest, be a grandfather of Juan Ambrocio. At the moment this is purely hypothetical. Juan, the son of Nicolas de Armas, was born in 1682. Juan Ambrocio de Armas had a daughter baptized in 1757. It is very unlikely that a 75 year old man would father a child, he is too old.

Based on several dates with Juan Ambrocio's family, I would estimate that he was married in the 1740-45 period. It is also possible that he was married in the late 1730s. If you don't find anything in the 1740-45 matrimonial investigations, then try the 1735-40 period.

The Nochistlan matrimonial investigations are with the other Nochistlan church records, not with the dispensations in the Diocese of Guadalajara records.

George Fulton
Pleasanton, CA

introduction for azua-stofleth

Hello all,

I am doing research for my wife's family (and of course for my kids as well). My lineage is German on top of German, with a little German thrown in.

Comments

Comment

Welcome Jerry and Paula,

It's very refreshing to hear that you are taking the time to look for possible roots in Mexico. I find that many researchers want to make the connection from New Mexico to Spain without considering possible links in Mexico...welcome.

Baptism records for Maria de la Torre, Zacatecas?

What church records should I be searching to find a baptism record from 1827?

T.I.A.,
Roy

Comments

Comment

Can't say they are exclusively there but some of Maria de La Torre records
for that time period can be found in the Colotlan archives - for example:

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18450-31025-92?cc=1874591&wc…
3895

joseph

=========================

Joseph Puentes
Clean@h2opodcast.com
http://h2opodcast.com

> -----Original Message-----
> From: research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org [mailto:research-
> bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org] On Behalf Of rvr_jr@msn.com
> Sent: Sunday, September 02, 2012 6:29 AM
> To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Baptism records for Maria de la Torre,
Zacatecas?
>
> What church records should I be searching to find a baptism record from
1827?
>
> T.I.A.,
> Roy

Comment

What town or city in Zacatecas? or is it the city of Zacatecas proper?

Alicia
San Jose, Ca

________________________________
From: "rvr_jr@msn.com"
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Sunday, September 2, 2012 3:28 AM
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Baptism records for Maria de la Torre, Zacatecas?

What church records should I be searching to find a baptism record from 1827?

T.I.A.,
Roy

Research, Patricia Gómez left a message for you

Patricia Gómez left a message for you

Only you can see the sender and content of your message, and you can delete it anytime.

Comments

Comment

Hello Ms. Gomez, badoo is a dating focused social networking site and as i am not single, i would prefer to be contacted for genealogy reseach through this forum or google mail, as others have done, not by a link which may just be spam. Like everyone else, I am wary of computer viri and unwanted cookies. If you have a question or comment relevant to my areas of interest as described in my userprofile and previous posts, you are very welcome to contact me.
Regards, Denise Fastrup

DNA of The Denisovens of Siberia

Today while driving home from work, I was listening to NPR specifically to the California Report about a just published study in a science journal about the DNA findings of the Denisovens.

Comments

Comment

Thanks to a little girl's pinkie bone.  Fascinating!

--- On Fri, 8/31/12, Alicia Carrillo wrote:

From: Alicia Carrillo
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] DNA of The Denisovens of Siberia
To: "general@nuestrosranchos.org"
Date: Friday, August 31, 2012, 11:11 PM

Today while driving home from work, I was listening to NPR specifically to the California Report about a just published study in a science journal about the DNA findings of the Denisovens. To those of you who might be more experienced in DNA, this might be old news, but for me, this is new news. I came home straight to my computer to search for articles about our ancient ancestors, the Denisovens.

Alicia,
Northern California

Here's a brief intro into this article, I hope you find it as fascinating as I did.

THE Denisovans, mysterious cousins of the
Neanderthals, occupied a vast realm stretching from the chill expanse of Siberia to the steamy tropical forests of Indonesia - suggesting the
third human of the Pleistocene displayed a level of adaptability
previously thought to be unique to modern humans.
Our first tantalising glimpse of the Denisovans came last year with DNA analysis of a bone and tooth found in a Siberian cave. The DNA was distinct
enough from Neanderthals' to suggest tens of thousands of years of
independent evolution.
Before they disappeared, the Denisovans found time to interbreed with Homo sapiens. As a result, 5 per cent of the Denisovan genome lives on - not in the
inhabitants of Siberia but in Papua New Guineans, living thousands of
kilometres to the south-east (Nature, DOI: 10.1038/nature09710).

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21128323.200-the-vast-asian-realm…

Records for Piedras Negras

Does anyone know if there are any records for Piedras Negras Aguascalientes after 1902?. My grandmother was born in 1906 in Piedras Negras.

Comments

Comment

Which part of Aguascalientes is Piedras Negras located?
MG

In a message dated 8/23/2012 3:42:07 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
juanitahenniger@msn.com writes:

Does anyone know if there are any records for Piedras Negras
Aguascalientes after 1902?. My grandmother was born in 1906 in Piedras Negras. I was
hoping to find something that would lead me to my great grandmother's parents
as we know very little about them. Thanks.

Comment

It looks to be part of Jesús María, Aguascalientes -
http://mexico.pueblosamerica.com/i/piedras-negras/

The baptisms are at

https://familysearch.org/search/image/index#uri=https%3A%2F%2Ffamilysea…

The civil records are at

https://familysearch.org/search/image/index#uri=https%3A%2F%2Ffamilysea…

Saludos
Armando

On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 9:39 PM, wrote:

> Which part of Aguascalientes is Piedras Negras located?
> MG
>
>
> In a message dated 8/23/2012 3:42:07 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
> juanitahenniger@msn.com writes:
>
> Does anyone know if there are any records for Piedras Negras
> Aguascalientes after 1902?. My grandmother was born in 1906 in Piedras
> Negras. I was
> hoping to find something that would lead me to my great grandmother's
> parents
> as we know very little about them. Thanks.