Dr.mt

1553 Mexico City baptism record; need help re: Montemayor reference

Published by PINEDA37 –
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Genealogy Research

Hello everyone --

I came across an interesting 1553 baptism record in Mexico City. Among the witnesses listed are Cristobal Onate, Hernan Peres de Bocanegra and Antonio de la Cadena.

Comentarios

Comentario

Chris,
The information you provide regarding roots of Monterrey/Saltillo founding families you is extremely interesting to me as all the individuals you list are my direct ancestors. Regarding the document where the name ___?___ Montemayor is listed, it appears as some kind of abbreviation after what appears to read "don 'al' de Montemayor". Sorry I cannot be of more help.

Sincerely

Jaime Alvarado

Comentario

Bill -- Thanks for your help! It's so obvious now! Thanks for taking the time to look at this.

CP

>
> Chris,
>
> I believe the baptismal record reads as follows:
>
> "En quatro del mes de julio se bautizo jeronima hija de
> martin de Can
> pos y de su muger lixitima leonor de [ilegible] fueron sus
> padrinos
> el Se?or doctor don Rafael de Cerbanes tesorero desta Santa
> Yglesia
> y don Alo. de Montemayor y hernan perez de Bocanegra y
> Xptobal
> de O?ate y antonio de la Cadena"
>                
>                
>                
>     [firma] Rafael de
> Cerbanes
>                
>                
>                
>            
>    Doctor
>
> In modern Spanish:
>
> "En cuatro del mes de julio se bautiz? Jer?nima, hija de
> Mart?n de Cam-
> pos y de su leg?tima mujer Leonor de [ilegible]. 
> Fueron sus padrinos
> el Sr. Dr. don Rafael de Cerbanes, Tesorero de esta Santa
> Iglesia,
> don Alonso de Montemayor, Hern?n P?rez de Bocanegra,
> Crist?bal
> de O?ate y Antonio de la Cadena."
>                
>                
>                
> [firma] Rafael de Cerbanes
> (Cervantes?)
>                
>                
>                
>            Doctor
>
> I did not understand the surname of Jer?nima's mother
> Leonor.
>
> BILL FIGUEROA
>
>

Comentario

Hello Chris:

Dr. Thomas Hillerkuss at the Zacatecas University has been researching colonial families of Zacatecas and Mexico from the 16th and 17th centuries. On his work "Entre la ambicion por el poder y la riqueza. El tortuoso camino de los Salazar y de los Onate hacia las altas esferas de la sociedad novohispana", MY translation would be: "Between power and wealth ambition. The tortous path of the Salazar and the Onate towards novohispanic society high circles" he mentions the baptism you were asking for. In page 14 he writes " .... on 4 of july of 1547, with Doctor Don Rafael de Cervanes, cathedral treasurer and with the capital (Mexico City) ordinary mayor, don Antonio de la Cadena brother in law of the future father in law of Cristobal, baptized Geronima, daughter of Martin de Campos and of Leonor de Acosta".

Dr. Hillerkuss cites as referenc a book about the sacramental acts of mexico city in the 16th century.

Hopes this helps and the document from Dr. Hillerkuss can be found at:
http://www.iict.pt/pequenanobreza/arquivo/Doc/t5s2-01.pdf

Best regards
Jose Humberto Suarez Villarreal
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hola Chris:

El Dr. Thomas Hillerkuss de la Universidad Autonoma de Zacatecas ha estado trabajando en las familias del Mexico colonial de los siglos 16 y 17. En su articulo "Entre la ambicion por el poder y la riqueza. El tortuoso camino de los Salazar y de los Onate hacia las altas esferas de la sociedad novohispana" mencionahe el bautizo acerca del cual estabas indagando. En la página 14 escribe: "... y el 4 de julio de 1547, con el doctor don Rafael de Cervanes, tesorero de la catedral, y el alcalde ordinario de la capital, don Antonio de la Cadena (cunado del futuro suegro de Cristobal), bautizo a Geronima, hija de Martin de Campos y de Leonor de Acosta"

La referencia del Dr. Hillerkuss es el libro de Actas Sacramentales del siglo XVI de la Ciudad de Mexico.

Espero lo anterior te sirva y el articulo del Dr. Hillerkuss lo encuentras en:
http://www.iict.pt/pequenanobreza/arquivo/Doc/t5s2-01.pdf

Saludos
Jose Humberto Suarez Villarreal

PD: Omito acentos y demas signos ortograficos para evitar que el mensaje se corrompa.

Comentario

Chris,

I believe the baptismal record reads as follows:

"En quatro del mes de julio se bautizo jeronima hija de martin de Can
pos y de su muger lixitima leonor de [ilegible] fueron sus padrinos
el Señor doctor don Rafael de Cerbanes tesorero desta Santa Yglesia
y don Alo. de Montemayor y hernan perez de Bocanegra y Xptobal
de Oñate y antonio de la Cadena"
[firma] Rafael de
Cerbanes
Doctor

In modern Spanish:

"En cuatro del mes de julio se bautizó Jerónima, hija de Martín de Cam-
pos y de su legítima mujer Leonor de [ilegible]. Fueron sus padrinos
el Sr. Dr. don Rafael de Cerbanes, Tesorero de esta Santa Iglesia,
don Alonso de Montemayor, Hernán Pérez de Bocanegra, Cristóbal
de Oñate y Antonio de la Cadena."
[firma] Rafael de Cerbanes
(Cervantes?)
Doctor

I did not understand the surname of Jerónima's mother Leonor.

BILL FIGUEROA

Jeronimo Rosales and Josepha Romo de Vivar

Published by HaciendaRomo –
Foros
Genealogy Research

Ayuda por favor
My GGGGGGG grandfather Jeronimo Rosales b. 1689 married Josepha Romo de Vivar b. 1689, daughter of Francisco Romo de Vivar Rangel and Lorenza Ruis de Esparza

Comentarios

Comentario

Hi Aurora,

Are Jerónimo Rosales Romo and María de los Dolores de la Torre (married 3 Feb 1744 in Aguascalientes) your 7G grandparents? [Matrimonios 1736-1746, Image 269/362 Foja 265b]. The link to their marriage record is as follows:

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-266-11592-123717-90?cc=1410092…

I have not found any other Jerónimo de Rosales married to a Josepha Romo de Vivar in Aguascalientes, so the children you've found plus Jerónimo Rosales Romo (14 siblings) are correct.

BILL FIGUEROA

----- Original Message -----
From:
To:
Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 6:17 PM
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Jeronimo Rosales and Josepha Romo de Vivar

Ayuda por favor
My GGGGGGG grandfather Jeronimo Rosales b. 1689 married Josepha Romo de Vivar b. 1689, daughter of Francisco Romo de Vivar Rangel and Lorenza Ruis de Esparza

In researching (my GGGGGG) Jeronimo Rosales Romo de Vivar’s siblings I found a total of 13. Most born in Aguascalientes, Ags. -- some in Cienega de Mata Ojuelos, Jalisco
Three of the siblings had the same or similar names but born in different years. My question is – are some of the children I found belong to another set of parents with the exact names of Jeronimo Rosales and Josepha Romo de Vivar? So far the documents I have checked do not have the names of the grandparents so I can verify if they are the same parents.

Here is what I have as children of
Jerónimo Rosales and Josepha Romo De Vivar (Married May 1st, 1709, Aguascalientes,)

*Francisco Eusebio b. 1710, Aguascalientes
Maria Sebastiana b. 1711 Aguascalientes
Lorenza b. 1713, Aguascalientes
*Francisco b. 1716, Aguascalientes
Josepha Eufracia Gertrudis b. 1718 Aguascalientes
Juan Joseph b. 1720 Aguascalientes
*Cristóbal b. 1723, Cienega de Mata, Ojuelos Jalisco
Maria Sebastiana b 1727 Cienega de Mata
Joseph Ylario b. 1730 Cienega de Mata
*Joseph Gabriel b. 1729 Cienega de Mata
Ana Rosales b. 1732 San Antonio Aguascalientes
*Gabriel b. 1734 San Antonio, Aguascalientes
*Cristóbal b. 1736 Cienega de Mata

Thank you for any information you may have. In the mean time I will continue to check the church records.
Aurora De Anda Romo

Comentario

Hi Bill,
Thank you for checking this out.
I also could not find any other couple by that name in that same period. Jeronimo Rosales Romo and Maria de La Torre are my 7G grandparents. Jeronimo being the child of Jeronimo Rosales Garcia and Josepha Romo de Vivar.
I have found Romo de Vivar's in my Olivares and De Anda family trees. Also my maternal grandmother was a Romo Rodriguez and my husband is a Romo. I have traced them all back to Diego Romo de Vivar and Catalina Perez of Spain.
I have found it quite interesting how many of my family lines have crossed at some time or another throughout the centuries.
Again thank you,
Aurora De Anda Romo

Published by victorianonavarro (no verificado) – Dom, 2012-02-26 22:19 | Enlace permanente

Comentario

I have seen some examples in Coahuila in the late 1800's-early 1900's where 2 or 3 siblings have the same name, with the older one still alive and well when the next one was born. Sometimes they have the same father but different mothers. Sometimes but not always they have a different first or middle name.
Evaristo Madero had 3 daughters called Bárbara with 2 wives, they all survived childhood.

Victoriano Navarro

Comentario

I too have seen families with 2 children living at the same time with the same exact name. In one case, one was much older than the other, so perhaps they named the younger one after him to honor him? Also, there is the possibility that they knew two different godfathers with the same name so two sons were named the same but after different god-fathers?

Emilie
Port Orchard, WA

> To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> From: mnavarrovillalobos@yahoo.com.mx
> Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2012 21:19:59 -0800
> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Siblings with same name
>
> I have seen some examples in Coahuila in the late 1800's-early 1900's where 2 or 3 siblings have the same name, with the older one still alive and well when the next one was born. Sometimes they have the same father but different mothers. Sometimes but not always they have a different first or middle name.
> Evaristo Madero had 3 daughters called Bárbara with 2 wives, they all survived childhood.
>
> Victoriano Navarro

Comentario

Hi Aurora,

I can not answer your question if the duplicated names are of two different families. 

 

I found to be a common practice when I was researching my Madeira, Portugal ancestors, that when a child died, that same name was then given to another child with in the same family. 

 

This practice happened with one of my own siblings...  My parent's second born was a son named Manuel, born 1919, he died shortly after.  Their third child was also a son, but given a different first name, it wasn't until their fifth child was born, a son that he was given the name of Manuel.

This naming practice often would happen with the very next child of the same sex, but now always.

 

 

Pat Silva Corbera 

   

Comentario

Thank you Pat,

I have come across using the same name of the deceased children. I had not seen it done for 3 children in the same family and the fact that some were born in another town gave me some doubts.
By the way, my grandmother was named Paula Silva b. 1880 in Calvillo, Ags. My G. grandparents Ireneo Silva and Merced Martinez married Oct 8, 1873, GGG Ysidro de Silva and Maria Antonia Ortiz married 1829.
Where are your Silva relatives from?

Aurora De Anda Romo

Comentario

I've found in not unusual to name twins the same name. In one family I though he had a second family until I found his brother and wife as godparents to one of his children.  Without this one record I would have had a real problem seperating them. This was in Jerez, Zacatecas.
Linda in Everett

________________________________
From: "aderomo@msn.com"
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2012 12:34 PM
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Siblings with same names

Thank you Pat,

I have come across using the same name of the deceased children. I had not seen it done for 3 children in the same family and the fact that some were born in another town gave me some doubts. By the way, my grandmother was named Paula Silva b. 1880 in Calvillo, Ags. My G. grandparents Ireneo Silva and Merced Martinez married Oct 8, 1873, GGG Ysidro de Silva and Maria Antonia Ortiz married 1829. Where are your Silva relatives from?

Aurora De Anda Romo

Comentario

It was very common that if one child with a certain name died and then
another one was born, this other child will be name the same as the dead
child

On Sun, Feb 26, 2012 at 1:34 PM, wrote:

> Thank you Pat,
>
> I have come across using the same name of the deceased children. I had not
> seen it done for 3 children in the same family and the fact that some were
> born in another town gave me some doubts. By the way, my grandmother was
> named Paula Silva b. 1880 in Calvillo, Ags. My G. grandparents Ireneo Silva
> and Merced Martinez married Oct 8, 1873, GGG Ysidro de Silva and Maria
> Antonia Ortiz married 1829. Where are your Silva relatives from?
>
> Aurora De Anda Romo

Comentario

Hi Aurora,

 

Anything is possible, but I agree 3 children born with-in the same family dying and their names being passed to 3 more children, seems a little strange, but it may just be correct.

 

Large families, with many offspring dying.  Tino's paternal grandmother I understand had 10 children, with many dying.  By the time she migrated to the USA in 1927 there were only three that reached adulthood.

 

The only Silva, to date, that appears in Tino's ancestry is Simona da Silva married to Macario de Espitia... The only information we have for Simona is that she  was buried 17 Aug 1719 Aguascalientes.

 

My Silva ancestors were from the island of Madeira, Portugal, dating back to the mid 1600s.  My maternal grandparents, my mother and her brother migrated in 1906 to Massachusetts.  Our original surame is "daSilva Se'." By the time I was born it was shortened to Silva...

 

Pat Silva Corbera

Tracy CA

 

 

 
 

----- Original Message -----
From: aderomo@msn.com
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2012 12:34:23 PM
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Siblings with same names

Thank you Pat,

I have come across using the same name of the deceased children. I had not seen it done for 3 children in the same family and the fact that some were born in another town gave me some doubts.
 By the way, my grandmother was named Paula Silva b. 1880 in Calvillo, Ags. My G. grandparents Ireneo Silva and Merced Martinez married Oct 8, 1873, GGG Ysidro de Silva and Maria Antonia Ortiz married 1829.
Where are your Silva relatives from?

Aurora De Anda Romo

My Great Grandfather Calixto Madera Brothers and Sisters of Huejuquilla El Alto, Jalisco, Mexico

Published by MADERA_32 –
Foros
Genealogy Research

I am browsing Baptismos and search for the copy of my great grandfather Calixto Madera De La Paz.

Comentarios

Comentario

Antonio

Defunto (Burial) of Julian Madera De La Paz (Calixto Madera De La Paz brother)
Age: 73 yrs.
Wife - Luisa Escalante

Parents - Patricio Madera/Maria Dimas De La Paz

Domicilio (Home) - Mesa del Santo Cristo

Date of defunto - October 22, 1925

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18447-7218-52?cc=1874591&wc=…
http://imageshack.us/f/825/julianmaderadelapaz.jpg/

Defunto - Julia Madera, Parbula 2 yrs. 1885 (La Mesa) Hija de Calixto Madera/Clemencia Ramirez (Madera?)

http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg37/scaled.php?server=37&filename=julia…

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18447-7131-58?cc=1874591&wc=…

Defunto - Modesta Madera, Parbula 2 yrs, 1885 (Jimulco) Hija de Calixto Madera/Clemencia Ramirez (Madera?)

http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/6427/modestamadera2yrs1885ji.jpg
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18447-7021-17?cc=1874591&wc=…

wedding certificate translation help

Published by arturobuco –
Foros
Genealogy Research

Iam having difficulty with a document. Could anyone help me translate this document?
http://www.nuestrosranchos.org/node/20391
I really apreciate the help!

Comentarios

Published by victorianonavarro (no verificado) – Jue, 2012-03-01 21:09 | Enlace permanente

Comentario

Hi,

I don't think the ceremony took place in a hospital as we know them. It took place in the church of a Hospitalary Religious Order, which would provide hospitality to the sick and/or travelers on premises close to their church. It is indeed a proof of matrimony and there should be a marriage certificate and maybe even marriage informations in Zacatecas.

I once saw a document like this one from Parral, Chihuahua, from the late 1700's. The groom married the bride by proxy about one year earlier in another State; meaning that the groom did not attend his own wedding but someone else was there representing him. I guess the bride wanted a somewhat real wedding with the groom present and thus they had the nuptial blessings ceremony.

Victoriano Navarro

Published by victorianonavarro (no verificado) – Jue, 2012-03-01 19:56 | Enlace permanente

Comentario

It says that Cosme Felix de la Villa Bugarin and Maria de los Reyes got married in Zacatecas on August 14, 1675, got nuptial blessings in Mexico City on January 16, 1676, and this was recorded in the archives of the Church:

In Mexico City on January 16 1676, with the presence of the Doctor Garcia de Leon Castillo priest of the Sagrario of this Holy Cathedral of Mexico Church, the Bachelor Joseph de los Reyes, priest, gave the nuptial blessings of the Church in the church of the Hospital of Our Lady, to Cosme Felix de la Villa Bugarin with Maria de los Reyes, being witnesses Juan de ¿Albilsur? and Juan de ¿Dia?, present, and based on their testimony that ¿their date? in the Church of Our lady of Sacatecas, on August 14, 1675. For sure they -Cosme and María- are married, such testimony shall be in the ¿commandments? of this Archive of this Sagrario for the record at all times.
*******************
Victoriano Navarro

Comentario

thank you so much! so does this mean that there is a testimony in zacatecas? and why will they be at a hospital? this almost sound like a proof of matrimony and not a new matrimony.

This is the link
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-9757-26789-75?cc=1615259&wc=…

2nd on the right,

Comentario

can you provide the link to the document, it will be easier to view and enlarge the document with picture manager.

Alicia

________________________________
From: "buga1138@bears.unco.edu"
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thursday, March 1, 2012 12:15 PM
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] wedding certificate translation help

Iam having difficulty with a document. Could anyone help me translate this document?
http://www.nuestrosranchos.org/node/20391 I really apreciate the help!

Indexing Again/Indexacion Otra Vez

Published by conrique –
Foros
Genealogy Research

Joseph,

Please let me know the available details for and about this Villanueva and Fresnillo indexing project.
Even though I am quite busy at this time, I want to consider working with our NR grou

Comentarios

Comentario

> -----Original Message-----
> From: research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org [mailto:research-
> bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org] On Behalf Of Efrain Conrique
> Sent: Wednesday, February 29, 2012 1:23 AM
> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Indexing Again/Indexacion Otra Vez
>
> Joseph,
>
> Please let me know the available details for and about this Villanueva
> and Fresnillo indexing project.
> Even though I am quite busy at this time, I want to consider working with
> our NR group again.

Here are some instructions for downloading the indexing program and
installing it on your computer.

https://indexing.familysearch.org/newuser/nugetstarted.jsf

After you have it downloaded and installed make sure you sign up for a free
LDS account (NOTE: this is different than your account with Nuestros
Ranchos. Your username and pw from the NR group will not work for indexing).
Go to https://www.familysearch.org/ at the top right click on "sign in" then
on the right side mid way or lower click on "Create New Account".

Every time you open the LDS indexing program you'll need your LDS username
and pw so carefully write it down once you've created your account.

Open and close the program a time or two but don't start indexing until
AFTER you've completed the tutorial:

https://fch.ldschurch.org/WWSupport/Courses/FamilySearchIndexing/Versio…
n/Lesson1/index.html

let me know AFTER you've finished the tutorial how you've done.

Thanks for your willingness to help with this important project.

Joseph

Joseph Puentes
Clean@h2opodcast.com
http://h2opodcast.com

>
> Saludos,
>
> Efrain Conrique
> conrique1@earthlink.net
> 858-565-0464
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> >From: Joseph Puentes
> >Sent: Feb 28, 2012 4:36 PM
> >To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> >Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Indexing Again/Indexacion Otra Vez
> >
> >Just wanted to let everyone know that there is a new indexing project
> >available and it is for Villanueva and Fresnillo, Zacatecas together.
> >Consider joining the Nuestros Ranchos indexing group. Contact me
> >privately at joseph@nuestrosranchos.org for more information.
> >
> >
> >
> >Hay un proyecto Nuevo para Villanueva y Fresnillo, Zacatecas juntos.
> >Por Que no entran al grupo de indexacion de Nuestros Ranchos. Mandame
> >un correo a joseph@nuestrosranchos.org para mas informacion.
> >
> >
> >
> >Joseph
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Joseph Puentes
> >
> >Clean@h2opodcast.com
> >
> >http://h2opodcast.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >

Two death records for the same person?

Published by gpf13 –
Foros
Genealogy Research

I have found what may be two death records for the same person. The records are somewhat difficult to read, however, the names are clear.

Comentarios

Published by victorianonavarro (no verificado) – Mar, 2012-02-28 07:54 | Enlace permanente

Comentario

Hi George,
I think they made a mistake when transcribing the records. I understand some of these books were not written by adding each record as the service was provided, but rather by copying the information form other books or drafts. If you see the entries on images 189 and 194, Thomas de Villalpando widower of Maria de Sotelo is not the only one who appears as a duplicate entry. There are also:
Luisa Ribera Fonseca, española, casada.
Juan Felis, indio, casado.
Maria de los Santos, india, párvula.
Matiana Esquibel, india, casada.

They all appear in the same order, following the previous one, excepting one case where there is an additonal record on image 189 between Maria and Matiana. Chances of 4-5 different persons with the same names and marital status dying in the same order in the same town are pretty slim.

As for which is the real date, I think it is hard to know unless you find some other documents like a Will where they mention whether they are still alive or already passed away.

I have seen at least one similar duplicate entry for a baptism in Parras, Coah. in the 1770's: same three names for the child, same birthday (one year difference), same baptism day (one year difference), same parents and godparents.

Victoriano Navarro

Comentario

Victoriano

Thank you for the information.

I received an e-mail from Luis who also looked at these records, and he noted that the pastor was absent from his duties in the parish after March 11, 1738, and then ultimately his death. Thus, business in the parish was unsettled, and this led to duplication of the events in the register.

Unless other information is found, the reasonable assumption would be that the first date is likely correct. However, I will make a note of both (with Luis's explanation) in my notes.

George Fulton
Pleasanton, CA

Help Needed - Simona De Silva Image 33 of 241

Published by Pat Silva Corbera –
Foros
Genealogy Research

List Members,

 

I would appreciate help in translating the side bar information on this marriage record...

Image 33 of 241 ...

Comentarios

Comentario

Pat,

Macario de Espitia and Simona de Silva were married 22 April 1680 in
Aguascalientes. The marginal note says they were veiled (se velaron) almost
two years later 25 Jan 1682. Macario de Espitia was buried in
Aguascalientes 1 May 1732. I have identified six children for this couple:
Isabel, Michaela, Andrés, Jacinto, Salvador and María Teresa de Espitia.
Where can I find the baptismal record of Simona de Silva?

BILL FIGUEROA

Comentario

Bill,

 

Thank you...what is to be "vailed" ? Would that "vailing ceremony," have a vailing/marriage record online?  This term is unfamiliar to me.

 

I have located the following children hoping that their AP and AM would be mentioned, but they were not...

 

I have Michaela, Ysabel, Andres and Salvador.  I will search for Jacinto and Maria Teresa. that you mentioned.

 

Simona's burial record date is 17 Aug 1719...I didn't have Macario's burial date, I'll look that up.

 

To date I have not located birth/bapt records for either Macario or Simona.

 

I learned of their names from their daughter Ysabel's bapt record.  Ysabel is my husband's 5th greatgrandmother who is married to Diego de Aguayo/Aguallo (m.12 Jan 1699 Nochistlan).

 

Are you linked to this family?

 

Thank you,

Pat Silva Corbera 

 
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Figueroa"
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 12:38:05 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Help Needed - Simona De Silva Image 33 of 241

Pat,

Macario de Espitia and Simona de Silva were married 22 April 1680 in
Aguascalientes.  The marginal note says they were veiled (se velaron) almost
two years later 25 Jan 1682.  Macario de Espitia was buried in
Aguascalientes 1 May 1732.  I have identified six children for this couple:
Isabel, Michaela, Andrés, Jacinto, Salvador and María Teresa de Espitia.
Where can I find the baptismal record of Simona de Silva?

BILL FIGUEROA

Comentario

Pat,

I hope you don't me answering for Bill. Here are a few links to get you
acquainted with the ceremony.

http://hispanic-ancestors.blogspot.com/2012/02/veiling-ceremony.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_OicTTrozME

http://www.nuestrosranchos.org/node/16074

http://buscon.rae.es/draeI/SrvltConsulta?TIPO_BUS=3&LEMA=velar

Bill and Pat,

I also descend from Espitia/Aspitia. I finally understand why my ancestors
used so many surnames. Nicolás Macias Espitia and Ana Muñoz had children in
Lagos de Moreno between 1645 and 1664. Sometimes they used the surname
Torres. After looking at records in Aguascalientes I see Hernando de Torres
Espitia married Juana Vásquez Macias alias Juana Vasquez de Retamosa 11 Jan
1615 in Aguascalientes film 299421. This makes me think that my ancestor
was their son Nicolás Torres Vásquez baptized 2 May 1622 film 299421. Is
Macario de Espitia related to Hernando de Torres Espitia?

Armando

On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 3:12 PM, Pat Corbera wrote:

>
>
> Bill,
>
>
>
> Thank you...what is to be "vailed" ? Would that "vailing ceremony," have a
> vailing/marriage record online? This term is unfamiliar to me.
>
>
>
> I have located the following children hoping that their AP and AM would be
> mentioned, but they were not...
>
>
>
> I have Michaela, Ysabel, Andres and Salvador. I will search for Jacinto
> and Maria Teresa. that you mentioned.
>
>
>
> Simona's burial record date is 17 Aug 1719...I didn't have Macario's
> burial date, I'll look that up.
>
>
>
> To date I have not located birth/bapt records for either Macario or Simona.
>
>
>
> I learned of their names from their daughter Ysabel's bapt record. Ysabel
> is my husband's 5th greatgrandmother who is married to Diego de
> Aguayo/Aguallo (m.12 Jan 1699 Nochistlan).
>
>
>
> Are you linked to this family?
>
>
>
> Thank you,
>
> Pat Silva Corbera
>
>
>
>
>

Comentario

Hi Armando,

 

 I always value your input, your comments are always welcomed.

 

As for Macario de Espitia being related to Hernando de Torres Espitia it's possible, but we need to located documents that reference/associate them with the various name combinations found in each family.

 

Tomorrow I'm going to try and locate the marriages of Macario and Simona's offspring...  I realize that even if I find their grandchildren, the reference, if any,  to  AP and/or AM will simply refer to Macario and Simona... it's the spouse connections that may lead to a different branch of Espitias/Munoz/Macias/Torres etc.families...possibly linking Macario and Hernando's families. I'll also check the time line...

 

Thank you for the links to the very informative information about "veiling. "  Very interesting.

 

Wonder why Macario and Simona's "veiling," took place about 2 years after their 1680 marriage...

 

If the church didn't recognize a marriage being "completed until the veiling," wonder if some priest would consider children bring born before the "veiling, " as being "hijos naturales."

 

Once again thank you ...

Pat Silva Corbera

Tracy CA

 

 
----- Original Message -----
From: "Armando"
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 3:18:48 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Help Needed - Simona De Silva Image 33 of 241

Pat,

I hope you don't me answering for Bill. Here are a few links to get you
acquainted with the ceremony.

http://hispanic-ancestors.blogspot.com/2012/02/veiling-ceremony.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_OicTTrozME

http://www.nuestrosranchos.org/node/16074

http://buscon.rae.es/draeI/SrvltConsulta?TIPO_BUS=3&LEMA=velar

Bill and Pat,

I also descend from Espitia/Aspitia. I finally understand why my ancestors
used so many surnames. Nicolás Macias Espitia and Ana Muñoz had children in
Lagos de Moreno between 1645 and 1664. Sometimes they used the surname
Torres. After looking at records in Aguascalientes I see Hernando de Torres
Espitia married Juana Vásquez Macias alias Juana Vasquez de Retamosa 11 Jan
1615 in Aguascalientes film 299421. This makes me think that my ancestor
was their son Nicolás Torres Vásquez baptized 2 May 1622 film 299421. Is
Macario de Espitia related to Hernando de Torres Espitia?

Armando

On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 3:12 PM, Pat Corbera wrote:

>
>
> Bill,
>
>
>
> Thank you...what is to be "vailed" ? Would that "vailing ceremony," have a
> vailing/marriage record online?  This term is unfamiliar to me.
>
>
>
> I have located the following children hoping that their AP and AM would be
> mentioned, but they were not...
>
>
>
> I have Michaela, Ysabel, Andres and Salvador.  I will search for Jacinto
> and Maria Teresa. that you mentioned.
>
>
>
> Simona's burial record date is 17 Aug 1719...I didn't have Macario's
> burial date, I'll look that up.
>
>
>
> To date I have not located birth/bapt records for either Macario or Simona.
>
>
>
> I learned of their names from their daughter Ysabel's bapt record.  Ysabel
> is my husband's 5th greatgrandmother who is married to Diego de
> Aguayo/Aguallo (m.12 Jan 1699 Nochistlan).
>
>
>
> Are you linked to this family?
>
>
>
> Thank you,
>
> Pat Silva Corbera
>
>
>
>
>

Comentario

Thanks Armando for the links, they are all very informative, I never knew the true meaning of velados.

Alicia

________________________________
From: Armando
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 3:18 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Help Needed - Simona De Silva Image 33 of 241

Pat,

I hope you don't me answering for Bill. Here are a few links to get you
acquainted with the ceremony.

http://hispanic-ancestors.blogspot.com/2012/02/veiling-ceremony.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_OicTTrozME

http://www.nuestrosranchos.org/node/16074

http://buscon.rae.es/draeI/SrvltConsulta?TIPO_BUS=3&LEMA=velar

Bill and Pat,

I also descend from Espitia/Aspitia. I finally understand why my ancestors
used so many surnames. Nicolás Macias Espitia and Ana Muñoz had children in
Lagos de Moreno between 1645 and 1664. Sometimes they used the surname
Torres. After looking at records in Aguascalientes I see Hernando de Torres
Espitia married Juana Vásquez Macias alias Juana Vasquez de Retamosa 11 Jan
1615 in Aguascalientes film 299421. This makes me think that my ancestor
was their son Nicolás Torres Vásquez baptized 2 May 1622 film 299421. Is
Macario de Espitia related to Hernando de Torres Espitia?

Armando

On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 3:12 PM, Pat Corbera wrote:

>
>
> Bill,
>
>
>
> Thank you...what is to be "vailed" ? Would that "vailing ceremony," have a
> vailing/marriage record online?  This term is unfamiliar to me.
>
>
>
> I have located the following children hoping that their AP and AM would be
> mentioned, but they were not...
>
>
>
> I have Michaela, Ysabel, Andres and Salvador.  I will search for Jacinto
> and Maria Teresa. that you mentioned.
>
>
>
> Simona's burial record date is 17 Aug 1719...I didn't have Macario's
> burial date, I'll look that up.
>
>
>
> To date I have not located birth/bapt records for either Macario or Simona.
>
>
>
> I learned of their names from their daughter Ysabel's bapt record.  Ysabel
> is my husband's 5th greatgrandmother who is married to Diego de
> Aguayo/Aguallo (m.12 Jan 1699 Nochistlan).
>
>
>
> Are you linked to this family?
>
>
>
> Thank you,
>
> Pat Silva Corbera
>
>
>
>
>

Comentario

Pat and Armando,

I think the links provided by Armando explain the veiling ceremony quite accurately. Most veilings in Aguascalientes were performed during the wedding ceremony (casados y velados) although in some instances the veiling ceremony was performed later (casados y no velados). As the marriage blessing was considered a celebration, it was not allowed during Advent and Lent (that are considered penance periods). Therefore, if the marriage was celebrated during these periods, a separate veiling ceremony (velación) was required to complete the marriage sacrament. That explains why sometimes marriage and veiling happened during the same day and sometimes on different dates. Most often the priest recorded the wedding and veiling ceremonies in the same book (Libro de Matrimonios) either as an annotation next to the wedding or as a separate record. I have not found any veilings recorded in separate parish books in Aguascalientes.

Macario de Espitia was baptized 21 Jan 1659 in Aguascalientes [ Film 0299421 Baptisms 1616-1660 Aguascalientes ] and buried 1 May 1732 [ Film 299856 Defunciones 1620-1752 Aguascalientes ]. He was the son of Bartolome de Espitia and Juana Gonzalez (aka Juana de la Cerda, Juana de Espinosa, Juana Lopez de Elizalde, Juana Gonzalez Lisardi). The parents of Bartolome de Espitia were Francisco de Espitia and Francisca de Quiroga.

Macario's son Jacinto de Espitia was born 6 Sep 1688 and baptized 18 Sep 1688 in Aguascalientes. His daughter Maria Teresa de Espitia was baptized 13 Aug 1697 also in Aguascalientes [ Film 299423 Baptisms 1684-1701 ]

I don't have any additional information about Simona de Silva except for her burial record, which you already have.

As far as Hernando de Torres Espitia is concerned, he was originally from Mexico City. He married Juana Vazquez de Retamosa (aka Juana Macías) from Los Gallos 11 Jan 1615 in Aguascalientes. This couple was veiled several years later on 17 Sep 1619 also in Aguascalientes. Their children Magdalena, Juan and Nicolas de Torres were all baptized in Aguascalientes in 1618, 1620 and 1622. I have not found any family link between Hernando de Torres Espitia and Macario de Espitia or his ancestors Bartolome (Macario's father) and Francisco de Espitia (his grandfather).

As far as I know, I am not related to anyone in this family.

Rgds,

BILL FIGUEROA

Comentario

Bill,

 

Your posting left me speechless...  I have looked for Macario's birth/baptism info but didn't find anything and here you not only supply that information but much more.

 

Thank you so much for all this added information.

 

 I certainly enjoyed the links that Armanco provided for explaining the veiling ceremony.  I now will pay more attention when viewing marriage records looking for a reference to "casados y velados," or casados y no velados).

 

Do you think that one of the names you mentioned for Juana Gonzalez being Juana de la Cerda may be a reference to her association with the de la Cerda nobles that descend from Fernando de la Cerda, Infante d'Castile and his wife Branca de Franca?

 

Last evening I viewed the baptism record for Nicolas Torres Vasques (bapt 02 May 1622 Sagrario, Aguascalientes Image 18 of 324) and found it interesting that only a Godmother (Madinha) a Luisa de Avila (widow) was mentioned.  I also thought that the translation of Hernando's first name may even be something other than Hernando. 

Am I translating this correctly was there only a widow Godmother for Nicolas and not the usual two? Do you think this Luisa de Avila may be a relative?

 

Once again thank you so much for all the added information that you and Armando have supplied/provided.

 

Pat Silva Corbera

Tracy CA
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Figueroa"
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Saturday, February 25, 2012 4:33:45 AM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Help Needed - Simona De Silva Image 33 of 241

Pat and Armando,

I think the links provided by Armando explain the veiling ceremony quite accurately.  Most veilings in Aguascalientes were performed during the wedding ceremony (casados y velados) although in some instances the veiling ceremony was performed later (casados y no velados).  As the marriage blessing was considered a celebration, it was not allowed during Advent and Lent (that are considered penance periods). Therefore, if the marriage was celebrated during these periods, a separate veiling ceremony (velación) was required to complete the marriage sacrament. That explains why sometimes marriage and veiling happened during the same day and sometimes on different dates.  Most often the priest recorded the wedding and veiling ceremonies in the same book (Libro de Matrimonios) either as an annotation next to the wedding or as a separate record.  I have not found any veilings recorded in separate parish books in Aguascalientes.

Macario de Espitia was baptized 21 Jan 1659 in Aguascalientes [ Film 0299421 Baptisms 1616-1660 Aguascalientes ] and buried 1 May 1732 [ Film 299856 Defunciones 1620-1752  Aguascalientes ].  He was the son of Bartolome de Espitia and Juana Gonzalez (aka Juana de la Cerda, Juana de Espinosa, Juana Lopez de Elizalde, Juana Gonzalez Lisardi).  The parents of Bartolome de Espitia were Francisco de Espitia and Francisca de Quiroga.

Macario's son Jacinto de Espitia was born 6 Sep 1688 and baptized 18 Sep 1688 in Aguascalientes.  His daughter Maria Teresa de Espitia was baptized 13 Aug 1697 also in Aguascalientes [ Film 299423 Baptisms 1684-1701 ]

I don't have any additional information about Simona de Silva except for her burial record, which you already have.

As far as Hernando de Torres Espitia is concerned, he was originally from Mexico City.  He married Juana Vazquez de Retamosa (aka Juana Macías) from Los Gallos 11 Jan 1615 in Aguascalientes.  This couple was veiled several years later on 17 Sep 1619 also in Aguascalientes.  Their children Magdalena, Juan and Nicolas de Torres were all baptized in Aguascalientes in 1618, 1620 and 1622.  I have not found any family link between Hernando de Torres Espitia and Macario de Espitia or his ancestors Bartolome (Macario's father) and Francisco de Espitia (his grandfather).

As far as I know, I am not related to anyone in this family.

Rgds,

BILL FIGUEROA

Comentario

Bill and Armando,

 

Bill, In your previous posting you mentioned the following...

 

"Macario de Espitia was baptized 21 Jan 1659 in Aguascalientes [ Film 0299421 Baptisms 1616-1660 Aguascalientes ] and buried 1 May 1732 [ Film 299856 Defunciones 1620-1752 Aguascalientes ]. He was the son of Bartolome de Espitia and Juana Gonzalez (aka Juana de la Cerda, Juana de Espinosa, Juana Lopez de Elizalde, Juana Gonzalez Lisardi). The parents of Bartolome de Espitia were Francisco de Espitia and Francisca de Quiroga."

 

Bill, did you actually locate and view Macario's  bapt record ? 

 

I accessed the Aqauscalientes films, No Baptisms records for 1611 - 1660, but one for 1616 - 1662...so I viewed that one, it didn't have a film number so I couldn't verify it with the film # you provided...

 

Here's my findings...

 

 

1.  I couldn't locate a bapt record for Macario for 21 Jan 1659...very difficult for me to read....

 

2.  I did locate something rather interesting last entry on the right of   image 262 of 324

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-267-11824-50415-14?cc=1410092&…

It appears to be a marriage record for a Isabel Apitias...  plus it has a "veiling," notation.

 

This continues onto images 263 of 324...(top left page)

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-267-11824-52247-20?cc=1410092&…

The document side bar is referring to a Gaspar de Aguilar ???  The names of Francisco Aspitias and Francisca de Quiroga are mentioned in the text.

 

 3.  I don't know what to make of all  this...

 

4.  LDS has a listing for a Macario Aspitia Gijondes - male - baptism - 21 Jan 1659 -

El Sagrario, Aguascalientes,Aguascalientes, Mexico

Father: Bme.De Aspitia

Mother: Juana Gijondes

Batch: C604761  Film # 299421 

 

Is Gijondes another spelling variation for Gonzalez or is this an indexing error on the part of LDS input?

 

Pat Silva Corbera

Tracy, CA

 

----- Original Message -----
From: "Pat Corbera"
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Saturday, February 25, 2012 10:13:32 AM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Help Needed - Simona De Silva Image 33 of 241

Bill,

 

Your posting left me speechless...  I have looked for Macario's birth/baptism info but didn't find anything and here you not only supply that information but much more.

 

Thank you so much for all this added information.

 

 I certainly enjoyed the links that Armanco provided for explaining the veiling ceremony.  I now will pay more attention when viewing marriage records looking for a reference to "casados y velados," or casados y no velados).

 

Do you think that one of the names you mentioned for Juana Gonzalez being Juana de la Cerda may be a reference to her association with the de la Cerda nobles that descend from Fernando de la Cerda, Infante d'Castile and his wife Branca de Franca?

 

Last evening I viewed the baptism record for Nicolas Torres Vasques (bapt 02 May 1622 Sagrario, Aguascalientes Image 18 of 324) and found it interesting that only a Godmother (Madinha) a Luisa de Avila (widow) was mentioned.  I also thought that the translation of Hernando's first name may even be something other than Hernando. 

Am I translating this correctly was there only a widow Godmother for Nicolas and not the usual two? Do you think this Luisa de Avila may be a relative?

 

Once again thank you so much for all the added information that you and Armando have supplied/provided.

 

Pat Silva Corbera

Tracy CA
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Figueroa"
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Saturday, February 25, 2012 4:33:45 AM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Help Needed - Simona De Silva Image 33 of 241

Pat and Armando,

I think the links provided by Armando explain the veiling ceremony quite accurately.  Most veilings in Aguascalientes were performed during the wedding ceremony (casados y velados) although in some instances the veiling ceremony was performed later (casados y no velados).  As the marriage blessing was considered a celebration, it was not allowed during Advent and Lent (that are considered penance periods). Therefore, if the marriage was celebrated during these periods, a separate veiling ceremony (velación) was required to complete the marriage sacrament. That explains why sometimes marriage and veiling happened during the same day and sometimes on different dates.  Most often the priest recorded the wedding and veiling ceremonies in the same book (Libro de Matrimonios) either as an annotation next to the wedding or as a separate record.  I have not found any veilings recorded in separate parish books in Aguascalientes.

Macario de Espitia was baptized 21 Jan 1659 in Aguascalientes [ Film 0299421 Baptisms 1616-1660 Aguascalientes ] and buried 1 May 1732 [ Film 299856 Defunciones 1620-1752  Aguascalientes ].  He was the son of Bartolome de Espitia and Juana Gonzalez (aka Juana de la Cerda, Juana de Espinosa, Juana Lopez de Elizalde, Juana Gonzalez Lisardi).  The parents of Bartolome de Espitia were Francisco de Espitia and Francisca de Quiroga.

Macario's son Jacinto de Espitia was born 6 Sep 1688 and baptized 18 Sep 1688 in Aguascalientes.  His daughter Maria Teresa de Espitia was baptized 13 Aug 1697 also in Aguascalientes [ Film 299423 Baptisms 1684-1701 ]

I don't have any additional information about Simona de Silva except for her burial record, which you already have.

As far as Hernando de Torres Espitia is concerned, he was originally from Mexico City.  He married Juana Vazquez de Retamosa (aka Juana Macías) from Los Gallos 11 Jan 1615 in Aguascalientes.  This couple was veiled several years later on 17 Sep 1619 also in Aguascalientes.  Their children Magdalena, Juan and Nicolas de Torres were all baptized in Aguascalientes in 1618, 1620 and 1622.  I have not found any family link between Hernando de Torres Espitia and Macario de Espitia or his ancestors Bartolome (Macario's father) and Francisco de Espitia (his grandfather).

As far as I know, I am not related to anyone in this family.

Rgds,

BILL FIGUEROA

Comentario

Pat,

I've looked at what you have questions about.

1. This is the same as number four. The person that input the record wrote
it incorrectly because the priest had too much ink so it is hard to read
the surname. It does not say Gijondes. The L is wrote in the style of the
era and it is Lizarde. It states the parents are Bme de Aspitia (Espitia) y
Juana Lizarde (Elizalde) Padrinos Sebastian de Espinosa y Ana Garcia
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-267-11824-51426-17?cc=1410092&…

2. This record states that Isabel de Aspitia is the daughter of Francisco
de Aspitia and Francisca de Quiroga.

Armando

On Sat, Feb 25, 2012 at 5:32 PM, Pat Corbera wrote:

>
>
>
>
> Bill and Armando,
>
>
> Bill, In your previous posting you mentioned the following...
>
> "Macario de Espitia was baptized 21 Jan 1659 in Aguascalientes [ Film
> 0299421 Baptisms 1616-1660 Aguascalientes ] and buried 1 May 1732 [ Film
> 299856 Defunciones 1620-1752 Aguascalientes ]. He was the son of Bartolome
> de Espitia and Juana Gonzalez (aka Juana de la Cerda, Juana de Espinosa,
> Juana Lopez de Elizalde, Juana Gonzalez Lisardi). The parents of Bartolome
> de Espitia were Francisco de Espitia and Francisca de Quiroga."
>
> Bill, did you actually locate and view Macario's bapt record ?
>
>
> I accessed the Aqauscalientes films, No Baptisms records for 1611 - 1660,
> but one for 1616 - 1662...so I viewed that one, it didn't have a film
> number so I couldn't verify it with the film # you provided...
>
> Here's my findings...
>
>
> 1. I couldn't locate a bapt record for Macario for 21 Jan 1659...very
> difficult for me to read....
>
>
> 2. I did locate something rather interesting last entry on the right
> of image 262 of 324
>
>
> https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-267-11824-50415-14?cc=1410092&…
>
> It appears to be a marriage record for a Isabel Apitias... plus it has a
> "veiling," notation.
>
>
>
> This continues onto images 263 of 324...(top left page)
>
>
> https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-267-11824-52247-20?cc=1410092&…
>
> The document side bar is referring to a Gaspar de Aguilar ??? The names
> of Francisco Aspitias and Francisca de Quiroga are mentioned in the text.
>
>
> 3. I don't know what to make of all this...
>
>
> 4. LDS has a listing for a Macario Aspitia Gijondes - male - baptism - 21
> Jan 1659 -
>
> El Sagrario, Aguascalientes,Aguascalientes, Mexico
>
> Father: Bme.De Aspitia
>
> Mother: Juana Gijondes
>
> Batch: C604761 Film # 299421
>
>
> Is Gijondes another spelling variation for Gonzalez or is this an indexing
> error on the part of LDS input?
>
>
> Pat Silva Corbera
>
> Tracy, CA
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Pat Corbera"
> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> Sent: Saturday, February 25, 2012 10:13:32 AM
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Help Needed - Simona De Silva Image 33 of
> 241
>
>

Comentario

Armando,
 
Thank you.
 
I was getting confused by seeing marriage and baptism records on the listing for Bautismos 1616 - 1662  No mention of marriages being included in this grouping of records.
 
Ranchos Members...
Note: If you're research Aguascalientes  Batch # M604761 & Batch # C604761 Film # 299421 these records can be found at Mexico - Catholic Church Records --Sagrario -- Aguascalientes  Bautismos 1616 - 1662.
 
Pat Silva Corbera
Tracy, CA

----- Original Message -----

From: "Armando"
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Saturday, February 25, 2012 6:35:38 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Help Needed - Simona De Silva Image 33 of 241 / Macario de Espitia

Pat,

I've looked at what you have questions about.

1. This is the same as number four. The person that input the record wrote
it incorrectly because the priest had too much ink so it is hard to read
the surname. It does not say Gijondes. The L is wrote in the style of the
era and it is Lizarde. It states the parents are Bme de Aspitia (Espitia) y
Juana Lizarde (Elizalde) Padrinos Sebastian de Espinosa y Ana Garcia
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-267-11824-51426-17?cc=1410092&…

2. This record states that Isabel de Aspitia is the daughter of Francisco
de Aspitia and Francisca de Quiroga.

Armando

On Sat, Feb 25, 2012 at 5:32 PM, Pat Corbera wrote:

>
>
>
>
> Bill and Armando,
>
>
> Bill, In your previous posting you mentioned the following...
>
> "Macario de Espitia was baptized 21 Jan 1659 in Aguascalientes [ Film
> 0299421 Baptisms 1616-1660 Aguascalientes ] and buried 1 May 1732 [ Film
> 299856 Defunciones 1620-1752 Aguascalientes ]. He was the son of Bartolome
> de Espitia and Juana Gonzalez (aka Juana de la Cerda, Juana de Espinosa,
> Juana Lopez de Elizalde, Juana Gonzalez Lisardi). The parents of Bartolome
> de Espitia were Francisco de Espitia and Francisca de Quiroga."
>
> Bill, did you actually locate and view Macario's  bapt record ?
>
>
> I accessed the Aqauscalientes films, No Baptisms records for 1611 - 1660,
> but one for 1616 - 1662...so I viewed that one, it didn't have a film
> number so I couldn't verify it with the film # you provided...
>
> Here's my findings...
>
>
> 1.  I couldn't locate a bapt record for Macario for 21 Jan 1659...very
> difficult for me to read....
>
>
> 2.  I did locate something rather interesting last entry on the right
> of   image 262 of 324
>
>
> https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-267-11824-50415-14?cc=1410092&…
>
> It appears to be a marriage record for a Isabel Apitias...  plus it has a
> "veiling," notation.
>
>
>
> This continues onto images 263 of 324...(top left page)
>
>
> https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-267-11824-52247-20?cc=1410092&…
>
> The document side bar is referring to a Gaspar de Aguilar ???  The names
> of Francisco Aspitias and Francisca de Quiroga are mentioned in the text.
>
>
>  3.  I don't know what to make of all  this...
>
>
> 4.  LDS has a listing for a Macario Aspitia Gijondes - male - baptism - 21
> Jan 1659 -
>
> El Sagrario, Aguascalientes,Aguascalientes, Mexico
>
> Father: Bme.De Aspitia
>
> Mother: Juana Gijondes
>
> Batch: C604761  Film # 299421
>
>
> Is Gijondes another spelling variation for Gonzalez or is this an indexing
> error on the part of LDS input?
>
>
> Pat Silva Corbera
>
> Tracy, CA
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Pat Corbera"
> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> Sent: Saturday, February 25, 2012 10:13:32 AM
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Help Needed - Simona De Silva Image 33 of
> 241
>
>

Comentario

Pat,

I have been researching my lines in Aguascalientes for about ten years and have been through most microfilms and online records for the 16th and 17th centuries. My database includes more than 15,000 individuals, not all of them are my ancestors but most of them linked by family ties.

The entry for the baptism of Macario de Espitia can be found in the 1st. book of Baptisms and Marriages of Aguascalientes [ Bautismos y Matrimonios, 1616-1662. Parroquia de la Asunción de Aguascalientes. Image 215 of 324 ] The record reads as follows:

Al margen: "Macario Spañol"

"En veinte y uno de enero año de mil y seiscientos y sinqta
y nueve Baptise y puse los SStos. olios a Macario hijo de Bme. de
Espitia y Juana Lisardi* fueron sus padrinos Sebastian
de Spinosa y Ana Garcia y lo firme *Lisardi
[firma] Bme. de Soto
y Carvajal"
The link for this record is

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-267-11824-51426-17?cc=1410092&…

The record you found in the same book, image 262 of 324, is the marriage of Domingo de Salinas with Isabel de Espitia.

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-267-11824-50415-14?cc=1410092&…

Isabel de Espitia is the sister of Bartholome de Espitia and daughter of Francisco de Espitia and Francisca de Quiroga. The record reads:

Al margen: "Domingo de
Salinas con Isabel
de Aspitia no se ve-
laron .- velelos
en diez y seis dias de febo.
de mil y seiscientos y cuarenta
en la Parrochial fueron
sus Padrinos
Gaspar de Aguilar
y Bernarda Salado
y para q' conste lo
Rubrique"
(rúbrica del Cura)

"En la Villa de Aguas Calientes en dos dias del mes de
Junio de mill y seiscientos y treinta y nuebe habiendo
precedido todo lo dispuesto por el Sto. Concilio de Trento y las
amonestaciones en quince de Maio Domingo y en veinte
y dos Domingo y en veinte y nuebe del dho. mes Domingo
case y no vele a Domingo de Salinas hijo de Christo-
val de Salinas y Magdalena de Aguaio nl. de las Minas
de los Ramos vesino y Parrochiano desta Villa
de tiempo de un año de esta parte con Isavel de Aspitia
nl. desta Villa hija legitima de Franco. de Aspitia
y Franca. de Quiroga sus padres. Fueron testigos al casamiento
Pedro Arias Pardo, Gaspar de Aguilar su padrino
Martin Perez? Diego de Orosco Alonso de Renteria
y Nicolas de Bustamante en fee de lo cual lo fir-
me ut supra" El Licdo. Diego de
Torres y Ribera

I will answer your other questions in a separate email, including your question about the DE LA CERDA lineage.

Regards,

BILL FIGUEROA

Comentario

Pat,

I have not traced Juana Gonzalez (aka Juana de la Cerda) lineage to determine whether or not she is a descendant of the De la Cerda nobles that descend from Fernando de la Cerda, Infante d'Castile, and his wife Branca de Francia. I have found the compounded surname López de la Cerda in early records of Aguascalientes, San Luis Potosí and Jalisco. The earliest in my database is Agustín López de la Cerda, who married Lucía Rodríguez de Victoria 13 Nov 1635 in San Luis Potosí. His son Agustín López de la Cerda (el mozo) married María de Isla y Sotomayor 3 June 1667 in Aguascalientes. His daughter Josepha López de la Cerda married Isidro Martín de Sotomayor, probably in Aguascalientes, and Simona López de la Cerda married Nicolás Martín de Sotomayor in Teocaltiche. Simona and Nicolás lived in Sierra de Pinos and had children in Aguascalientes. So far I have not tried to link Juana de la Cerda to these families, but I feel that she was probably related.

My ancestor Don Luis de la Cerda y Tapia arrived in Nicaragua with the entourage of Spaniards that accompanied the new Governor and Captain General Don Rodrigo de Contreras y de la Hoz in November 1535 [Catálogo de Pasajeros a Indias, Archivo General de Indias, Ed. 1942]. He was the son of Melchor de la Cerda and Catalina de Tapia, residents of Segovia. His descendants played an important role in ruling Central America during colonial times. As you probably know, the Audiencia de Guatemala, like the Audiencia de Nueva Galicia, formed part of the Nueva España. It encompassed the Central American countries of Guatemala, el Salvador, Honduras, Nicaragua, Costa Rica and the Mexican states of Chiapas and Tabasco. As far as I know, the de la Cerdas from Central America were not related to those in the Nueva Galicia.

An interesting note, in his book "Rivers of Gold. The rise of the Spanish Empire", Hugh Thomas wrote: "A third family that began to rival the Guzmáns and the Ponces de León in the fifteen century (in Spain) were the de la Cerdas, royal counts and then dukes of Medinaceli, lords of El Puerto de Santa María. A palace of the Medinacelis, the Casa de Pilatos, remains a center of both attention and affection. Other families who played a great part in Seville despite connection elsewhere were the Portocarreros, the Zúñigas, the Dávalos, the Saavedras, and, increasingly, the Afans de Riveras."

BILL FIGUEROA

Comentario

Hello Bill
I had josefa ramirez Rodriguez Lopez de la cerda
Married to jose isidro martin de sotomayor Islas I did have in my notes that her mother has Rodriguez as a surname. I do not recall or have in my notes why I also listed Ramírez as a surname. Did josefa and her siblings marry Martinez de sotomayor isla siblings.
Thanks Rick a Ricci

Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 26, 2012, at 6:35 PM, "Bill Figueroa" wrote:

> Pat,
>
> I have not traced Juana Gonzalez (aka Juana de la Cerda) lineage to determine whether or not she is a descendant of the De la Cerda nobles that descend from Fernando de la Cerda, Infante d'Castile, and his wife Branca de Francia. I have found the compounded surname López de la Cerda in early records of Aguascalientes, San Luis Potosí and Jalisco. The earliest in my database is Agustín López de la Cerda, who married Lucía Rodríguez de Victoria 13 Nov 1635 in San Luis Potosí. His son Agustín López de la Cerda (el mozo) married María de Isla y Sotomayor 3 June 1667 in Aguascalientes. His daughter Josepha López de la Cerda married Isidro Martín de Sotomayor, probably in Aguascalientes, and Simona López de la Cerda married Nicolás Martín de Sotomayor in Teocaltiche. Simona and Nicolás lived in Sierra de Pinos and had children in Aguascalientes. So far I have not tried to link Juana de la Cerda to these families, but I feel that she was probably related.
>
> My ancestor Don Luis de la Cerda y Tapia arrived in Nicaragua with the entourage of Spaniards that accompanied the new Governor and Captain General Don Rodrigo de Contreras y de la Hoz in November 1535 [Catálogo de Pasajeros a Indias, Archivo General de Indias, Ed. 1942]. He was the son of Melchor de la Cerda and Catalina de Tapia, residents of Segovia. His descendants played an important role in ruling Central America during colonial times. As you probably know, the Audiencia de Guatemala, like the Audiencia de Nueva Galicia, formed part of the Nueva España. It encompassed the Central American countries of Guatemala, el Salvador, Honduras, Nicaragua, Costa Rica and the Mexican states of Chiapas and Tabasco. As far as I know, the de la Cerdas from Central America were not related to those in the Nueva Galicia.
>
> An interesting note, in his book "Rivers of Gold. The rise of the Spanish Empire", Hugh Thomas wrote: "A third family that began to rival the Guzmáns and the Ponces de León in the fifteen century (in Spain) were the de la Cerdas, royal counts and then dukes of Medinaceli, lords of El Puerto de Santa María. A palace of the Medinacelis, the Casa de Pilatos, remains a center of both attention and affection. Other families who played a great part in Seville despite connection elsewhere were the Portocarreros, the Zúñigas, the Dávalos, the Saavedras, and, increasingly, the Afans de Riveras."
>
> BILL FIGUEROA

Comentario

Hi Rick,

The parents of Josefa López de la Cerda were Agustín López de la Cerda and Lucía Rodríguez de Victoria, married 13 Nov 1635 in San Luis Potosí, SLP. Her paternal grandparents (abuelos paternos) were Francisco López and Francisca de los Angeles, and her maternal grandparents (abuelos maternos) Antonio Rodríguez and Catalina de Victoria, married 1 Jun 1601 in Pátzcuaro, Michoacán. [Source: Genealogía de Nochistlán Antiguo Reino de la Nueva Galicia en el Siglo XVII según sus Archivos Parroquiales, by José Luis Vázquez Rodríguez de Frías]

Josefa López de la Cerda married Isidro Martín de Sotomayor, her brother Agustín López de la Cerda (el mozo) married María de Isla y Sotomayor, and her sister Simona López de la Cerda married Nicolás Martín de Sotomayor. Isidro, María and Nicolás were brothers and sisters. Both Isidro and Nicolás used their father's surname "Martín de Sotomayor" while their sister María preferred "de Isla y Sotomayor".

The answer to your question is YES, Josefa López de la Cerda and her siblings married Martínez de Sotomayor Isla siblings. I did not find the surname Ramírez in this family.

BILL FIGUEROA

Comentario

Thank you Bill
I looked up the info that you provided in Jose Luis s book. It felt great to add a couple more generations to my tree.
Thanks again. Rick A Ricci.

Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 27, 2012, at 9:01 AM, "Bill Figueroa" wrote:

> Hi Rick,
>
> The parents of Josefa López de la Cerda were Agustín López de la Cerda and Lucía Rodríguez de Victoria, married 13 Nov 1635 in San Luis Potosí, SLP. Her paternal grandparents (abuelos paternos) were Francisco López and Francisca de los Angeles, and her maternal grandparents (abuelos maternos) Antonio Rodríguez and Catalina de Victoria, married 1 Jun 1601 in Pátzcuaro, Michoacán. [Source: Genealogía de Nochistlán Antiguo Reino de la Nueva Galicia en el Siglo XVII según sus Archivos Parroquiales, by José Luis Vázquez Rodríguez de Frías]
>
> Josefa López de la Cerda married Isidro Martín de Sotomayor, her brother Agustín López de la Cerda (el mozo) married María de Isla y Sotomayor, and her sister Simona López de la Cerda married Nicolás Martín de Sotomayor. Isidro, María and Nicolás were brothers and sisters. Both Isidro and Nicolás used their father's surname "Martín de Sotomayor" while their sister María preferred "de Isla y Sotomayor".
>
> The answer to your question is YES, Josefa López de la Cerda and her siblings married Martínez de Sotomayor Isla siblings. I did not find the surname Ramírez in this family.
>
> BILL FIGUEROA

Comentario

Hi Bill,

Now that the Lopez de la Cerda have been brought into this conversation I
wanted to ask if you or anyone in the NR forum has any information on the
grandparents of Phelipe Lopez De La Serda Marin , who married Juan Perez de
Frias Flores on May 29 1749 (vecinos de Rio Chico, Teocaltiche). I have
Phelipe's parents listed as Matheo Lopez de la Serda and Jacinta Marin.
Does anyone have information on Matheo and Jacinta's lineage?

Thanks and I look forward to your response.

Regards,
Juan Aguayo

On Sun, Feb 26, 2012 at 8:35 PM, Bill Figueroa wrote:

> Pat,
>
> I have not traced Juana Gonzalez (aka Juana de la Cerda) lineage to
> determine whether or not she is a descendant of the De la Cerda nobles that
> descend from Fernando de la Cerda, Infante d'Castile, and his wife Branca
> de Francia. I have found the compounded surname López de la Cerda in early
> records of Aguascalientes, San Luis Potosí and Jalisco. The earliest in my
> database is Agustín López de la Cerda, who married Lucía Rodríguez de
> Victoria 13 Nov 1635 in San Luis Potosí. His son Agustín López de la Cerda
> (el mozo) married María de Isla y Sotomayor 3 June 1667 in Aguascalientes.
> His daughter Josepha López de la Cerda married Isidro Martín de Sotomayor,
> probably in Aguascalientes, and Simona López de la Cerda married Nicolás
> Martín de Sotomayor in Teocaltiche. Simona and Nicolás lived in Sierra de
> Pinos and had children in Aguascalientes. So far I have not tried to link
> Juana de la Cerda to these families, but I feel that she was probably
> related.
>
> My ancestor Don Luis de la Cerda y Tapia arrived in Nicaragua with the
> entourage of Spaniards that accompanied the new Governor and Captain
> General Don Rodrigo de Contreras y de la Hoz in November 1535 [Catálogo de
> Pasajeros a Indias, Archivo General de Indias, Ed. 1942]. He was the son
> of Melchor de la Cerda and Catalina de Tapia, residents of Segovia. His
> descendants played an important role in ruling Central America during
> colonial times. As you probably know, the Audiencia de Guatemala, like the
> Audiencia de Nueva Galicia, formed part of the Nueva España. It
> encompassed the Central American countries of Guatemala, el Salvador,
> Honduras, Nicaragua, Costa Rica and the Mexican states of Chiapas and
> Tabasco. As far as I know, the de la Cerdas from Central America were not
> related to those in the Nueva Galicia.
>
> An interesting note, in his book "Rivers of Gold. The rise of the Spanish
> Empire", Hugh Thomas wrote: "A third family that began to rival the Guzmáns
> and the Ponces de León in the fifteen century (in Spain) were the de la
> Cerdas, royal counts and then dukes of Medinaceli, lords of El Puerto de
> Santa María. A palace of the Medinacelis, the Casa de Pilatos, remains a
> center of both attention and affection. Other families who played a great
> part in Seville despite connection elsewhere were the Portocarreros, the
> Zúñigas, the Dávalos, the Saavedras, and, increasingly, the Afans de
> Riveras."
>
> BILL FIGUEROA

Comentario

There is a Maria Magdalena Lozano Martinez aka maria martinez lozano married to a Miguel Lopez de la cerda that fits the timeframe in Aguascalientes.
R A Ricci

Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 27, 2012, at 8:57 AM, Juan Aguayo wrote:

> Hi Bill,
>
> Now that the Lopez de la Cerda have been brought into this conversation I
> wanted to ask if you or anyone in the NR forum has any information on the
> grandparents of Phelipe Lopez De La Serda Marin , who married Juan Perez de
> Frias Flores on May 29 1749 (vecinos de Rio Chico, Teocaltiche). I have
> Phelipe's parents listed as Matheo Lopez de la Serda and Jacinta Marin.
> Does anyone have information on Matheo and Jacinta's lineage?
>
> Thanks and I look forward to your response.
>
> Regards,
> Juan Aguayo
>
> On Sun, Feb 26, 2012 at 8:35 PM, Bill Figueroa wrote:
>
>> Pat,
>>
>> I have not traced Juana Gonzalez (aka Juana de la Cerda) lineage to
>> determine whether or not she is a descendant of the De la Cerda nobles that
>> descend from Fernando de la Cerda, Infante d'Castile, and his wife Branca
>> de Francia. I have found the compounded surname López de la Cerda in early
>> records of Aguascalientes, San Luis Potosí and Jalisco. The earliest in my
>> database is Agustín López de la Cerda, who married Lucía Rodríguez de
>> Victoria 13 Nov 1635 in San Luis Potosí. His son Agustín López de la Cerda
>> (el mozo) married María de Isla y Sotomayor 3 June 1667 in Aguascalientes.
>> His daughter Josepha López de la Cerda married Isidro Martín de Sotomayor,
>> probably in Aguascalientes, and Simona López de la Cerda married Nicolás
>> Martín de Sotomayor in Teocaltiche. Simona and Nicolás lived in Sierra de
>> Pinos and had children in Aguascalientes. So far I have not tried to link
>> Juana de la Cerda to these families, but I feel that she was probably
>> related.
>>
>> My ancestor Don Luis de la Cerda y Tapia arrived in Nicaragua with the
>> entourage of Spaniards that accompanied the new Governor and Captain
>> General Don Rodrigo de Contreras y de la Hoz in November 1535 [Catálogo de
>> Pasajeros a Indias, Archivo General de Indias, Ed. 1942]. He was the son
>> of Melchor de la Cerda and Catalina de Tapia, residents of Segovia. His
>> descendants played an important role in ruling Central America during
>> colonial times. As you probably know, the Audiencia de Guatemala, like the
>> Audiencia de Nueva Galicia, formed part of the Nueva España. It
>> encompassed the Central American countries of Guatemala, el Salvador,
>> Honduras, Nicaragua, Costa Rica and the Mexican states of Chiapas and
>> Tabasco. As far as I know, the de la Cerdas from Central America were not
>> related to those in the Nueva Galicia.
>>
>> An interesting note, in his book "Rivers of Gold. The rise of the Spanish
>> Empire", Hugh Thomas wrote: "A third family that began to rival the Guzmáns
>> and the Ponces de León in the fifteen century (in Spain) were the de la
>> Cerdas, royal counts and then dukes of Medinaceli, lords of El Puerto de
>> Santa María. A palace of the Medinacelis, the Casa de Pilatos, remains a
>> center of both attention and affection. Other families who played a great
>> part in Seville despite connection elsewhere were the Portocarreros, the
>> Zúñigas, the Dávalos, the Saavedras, and, increasingly, the Afans de
>> Riveras."
>>
>> BILL FIGUEROA

Comentario

Bill,

 

Thank you so much for sharing all this wonderful information with me.

 

As I have stated before researching my husband's Mexican ancestry has been a challenge, but I am determined to give it my full attention as I have done with researching my own Portuguese roots.

 

Thank you for the complete translation of the various documents in this Simona De Silva exchange.

 

When trying to locate the baptismal record of Macario de Espitia I became lost when viewing what I thought were Baptism records when so many of the records were actually marriages.

 

Armando did locate the record link and from there I was able to view the document.

 

I have printed out the complete translation that you have provided and will use it as a training tool. 

 

Off Topic - My maternal Portuguese line links directly with a Dom Raimundo Garcia Portocarreiro, he is my 24th GGF born about 1090... Other surnames that you mentioned Da Valos (of France) and Saavedra also appear in my maternal ancestry,.

 

Once again, your willing to share has been greatly appreciated!

 

Pat Silva Corbera

 
 

Proof of marriage at Baptisms--Padres no conocidos-- Research Digest, Vol 73, Issue 24

Published by mimasep1959 –
Foros
Genealogy Research

5.

Comentarios

Comentario

Hi Irma,

 

It was nice meeting you too...wish that we had more time to share research stories.

 

Your story about marriages and people in the various villages, brought smiles to my face, for I recall my parents relating pretty much the same stories about their family and friends in Madeira, Portugal and even here in the USA.

 

Though my mom was only 5 when she came to the USA she love talking about the "ladies," that gossiped and about the ones that worked for the "priests."  They knew everything that was going on... of course I'm sure these stories she related to me were stories that she had heard from her mother,.

 

I'm finding that many of the customs that I'm learning about with Tino's heritage are very similar to my Portuguese roots.

 

My own maternal great-grandfather was "filho dos pais incognito."

 

In one of Tino's lines, one child was "hija natural," the second child "hijo legitimo," and the third child again was "hijo natural,"  all the other children in this family were legitimos...

 

One bapt record for a hijo natural reflected the name of the paternal grandfather being the husband of the maternal grandmother...The priest had left out the names of their respective spouses. Had me going, until I figured out what the  Priest had done.

 

The concelho in Madeira had no record of my father's birth.  This was found out  when he applied for a passport to come to the USA.  His parents, grandparents and great grandparents along with neighbors had to attest to his birth information... it even states now in his birth record that the "Priest forgot to record his birth... that was in 1891...

 

Well, Dear Irma,  as Helyn and Alicia will confirm I'm a "chatter box,"  as evident in this lengthy posting and by my "chatter," when I rode with them all the way from Tracy to Sacramento and back.  LOL.

 

I'm looking forward to meeting you again at the Nueva Galicia Conference in Sacarmento in May...

 

Thank you for your input...

 

Pat Silva Corbera  

 
 

Comentario

Hello Pat and Irma

My experience is more recent. We have 3 children born in Jalisco during the 1980's. When we went to register them we had to first go to the Civil Registry and we did have to show proof of marriage with our marriage certificate in hand or our children would be registered as "Ilegitimo" in a separate book. We were told that we had 5 years from birth to register the baby; but with the registration you also get the coupon book that is required to vaccinate the baby.

Once you have that certificate you can take it to the church, also along with your marriage certificate, and register for a baptism.

You mentioned the problems your father had--my husband had the same issue when they were applying for immigration. My husband is a twin--it seems they entered his brother in the church records, but not my husband; even though they were baptised at the same time! Until recently it seems that a lot of people didn't bother with the Civil Record because they believed--"The record from God is the one the counts!"

Deedra Corona

Comentario

Hi Deedra,

 

Thank you for sharing your interesting experiences. 

 

I would have thought that the same practice would have been in use during earlier times... some proof in hand by the parents to show they were married in order for their children be registered as "legitima." 

 

My husband's parents and his grandparents on both side are all now deceased... it's questions like these that I wish I had thought of when they were still alive.

 

This should be a lesson learned to ask questions now, while you may still have access to living parents, grandparents and older relatives.

 

We are at the mercy that the various documents now available for viewing are correct, but may often contain errors.

 

Thank you

Pat Silva Corbera

Tracy CA

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 
----- Original Message -----
From: zapvive1@msn.com
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Saturday, February 25, 2012 12:22:48 PM
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Proof of Marriage

Hello Pat and Irma

My experience is more recent. We have 3 children born in Jalisco during the 1980's.  When we went to register them we had to first go to the Civil Registry and we did have to show proof of marriage with our marriage certificate in hand or our children would be registered as "Ilegitimo" in a separate book. We were told that we had 5 years from birth to register the baby; but with the registration you also get the coupon book that is required to vaccinate the baby.

Once you have that certificate you can take it to the church, also along with your marriage certificate, and register for a baptism.

You mentioned the problems your father had--my husband had the same issue when they were applying for immigration.  My husband is a twin--it seems they entered his brother in the church records, but not my husband; even though they were baptised at the same time!  Until recently it seems that a lot of people didn't bother with the Civil Record because they believed--"The record from God is the one the counts!"

Deedra Corona  

Questions on church records

Published by CarolGalvan –
Foros
Genealogy Research

Hello Everyone! I have a couple of questions. First, is it possible for babies not to be baptised? I'm looking everywhere for my 4x & 5x grandfathers, with approxmiate dates of 1787 and 1807.

Comentarios

Published by victorianonavarro (no verificado) – Vie, 2012-02-24 11:03 | Enlace permanente

Comentario

I have seen civil and religious records form Oaxaca in the late 1800's in which I believe the parents were not married and the children were registered as from "padres no conocidos" (although the child was actually brought by the father), or it has only the name of the mother and the father appears as "no conocido" even though apparently their parents actually raised them. I figured this out when for one of the siblings I found her baptism with "padres no conocidos", yet in her civil birth and later in her marriage she registered with both parents. I think in some cities they preferred to list the parents as "no conocidos" rather than accepting they were not married. This makes it very difficult to search further back on those lines.

Victoriano Navarro

Comentario

Victoriano,

 

Do you know if married couples were given a duplicate copy of their marriage record?

 

Then when baptizing their children was it required to show proof of their marriage, in order for the child to be registered as "hijo legitima" ?

 

Pat Silva Corbera

Tracy CA

 

 

 
----- Original Message -----
From: mnavarrovillalobos@yahoo.com.mx
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 10:03:51 AM
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] "padres no conocidos"

I have seen civil and religious records form Oaxaca in the late 1800's in which I believe the parents were not married and the children were registered as from "padres no conocidos" (although the child was actually brought by the father), or it has only the name of the mother and the father appears as "no conocido" even though apparently their parents actually raised them. I figured this out when for one of the siblings I found her baptism with "padres no conocidos", yet in her civil birth and later in her marriage she registered with both parents. I think in some cities they preferred to list the parents as "no conocidos" rather than accepting they were not married. This makes it very difficult to search further back on those lines.

Victoriano Navarro

Comentario

Hi Pat,
I don't know if couples were given a copy of their wedding certificate nor if they had to show it when baptizing a child. I have never seen a baptism record where they mention such proof was shown.

Hi Paul,
Indeed, by searching for siblings you may find missing information in other records, like names of grandparents or the "casta" of the parents. I've found several connections this way.

Best regards,

Victoriano Navarro

Comentario

You point out the importance of siblings in our family research. Importantly, too, is maternal research. Both can help us get beyond "walls".

Paul J. Gomez

Sent from my iPhone
paul.gomez@verizon.net

On Feb 24, 2012, at 10:03 AM, mnavarrovillalobos@yahoo.com.mx wrote:

> I have seen civil and religious records form Oaxaca in the late 1800's in which I believe the parents were not married and the children were registered as from "padres no conocidos" (although the child was actually brought by the father), or it has only the name of the mother and the father appears as "no conocido" even though apparently their parents actually raised them. I figured this out when for one of the siblings I found her baptism with "padres no conocidos", yet in her civil birth and later in her marriage she registered with both parents. I think in some cities they preferred to list the parents as "no conocidos" rather than accepting they were not married. This makes it very difficult to search further back on those lines.
>
> Victoriano Navarro

Comentario

Yes, it's possible. Very early death or being non-Catholic (unlikely in early Mexico. However, If they died at childbirth, you wouldn't have grandfathers. More than likely they were baptised later in life or elswhere from their birth place. My GGPs were married in the Catholic Church in 1866 in Huejucar, Mexico. Even though their parents and older and younger siblings were baptised there, I've never been able to find my GGPs baptism record. I even tried all the other Catholic Church records within a 100-mile radius. I suspect that perhaps those specific birth years the Church Records were lost oe destroyed.

Jose Carlos de Leon

Simona De Silva and Macario De Espitia

Published by abram101 –
Foros
Genealogy Research

Can anyone help find this two individual marriage image here is the link of when they got married or if you can just give me the directions on how to do it.Im just to used to looking at one place and

Comentarios

Comentario

Abram,

 

The procedure is the same, but instead of selecting Zacatecas --> Nochistlan, you would select Aguascalientes, and proceed in the same manner .

 

Happy Hunting...

 

Pat Silva Corbera

Tracy, CA

 

----- Original Message -----
From: aflore2855@gmail.com
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2012 9:23:50 PM
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Simona De Silva and Macario De Espitia

Can anyone help find this two individual marriage image here is the link of when they got married or if you can just give me the directions on how to do it.Im just to used to looking at one place and that is the Nochistlan records.??

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/JH5M-NVJ
 

Comentario

Abram...

 

Good job in locating this record... I viewed it but need help in translating the side bar message...something  about a date of 25 Jan 1682...???? 

 

OK! why is your name appearing at the beginning of every posting?  Are you starting off by typing in your name in the body before typing your message or is your email software program putting it there automatically ?  Find out what is causing it and get it corrected.

 

I see you ended your posting with your name... Abram...that's a step in the right direction... LOL

 

Pat Silva Corbera

Tracy CA

 

----- Original Message -----
From: aflore2855@gmail.com
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2012 2:15:08 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Simona De Silva and

Abram Flores

Pat,

Hooray i found it but bad news the document did not mention their parents names.
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-266-12446-30363-60?cc=1410092&…

Abram

Comentario

Pat..

Thanks i tried really hard but for nothing.I also tried looking through each son of theirs to see if their grandparents were named their and nothing i dislike how in mostly baptism records they don't have the grandparents name and also in marriages they don't have the groom and bride's parents.

Sorry i accidently typed my name their i have no idea why.
Just trying not get banned from this website again got to follow the rules.

Abram

Comentario

Abram,
 
I know you're trying... Yep! we all must follow the rules... that's life.
 
Ok, we'll just set this couple aside for now... there's plenty more to research.
 
Hopefully someone will help with the translation request...
 
Be sure and document all that you did find...
 
Are you using the PAF genealogy software program, if not what are you using ?
 
Tomorrow's another day... stay focused...
 
to be contiued...
 
Pat
----- Original Message -----
From: aflore2855@gmail.com
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2012 4:26:50 PM
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Simona De Silva and

Pat..

Thanks i tried really hard but for nothing.I also tried looking through each son of theirs to see if their grandparents were named their and nothing i dislike how in mostly baptism records they don't have the grandparents name and also in marriages they don't have the groom and bride's parents.

Sorry i accidently typed my name their i have no idea why.
Just trying not get banned from this website again got to follow the rules.

Abram

Comentario

Pat,
You are wonderful to be working so patiently with Abram.

Abram,
Congratulations, you're on your way to being a genealogist, listening to the experts who can guide you through this tedious but wonderful process, the search for our ancestors.

Alicia,
San Jose, Ca

________________________________
From: Pat Corbera
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2012 10:59 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Simona De Silva and

Abram,
 
I know you're trying... Yep! we all must follow the rules... that's life.
 
Ok, we'll just set this couple aside for now... there's plenty more to research.
 
Hopefully someone will help with the translation request...
 
Be sure and document all that you did find...
 
Are you using the PAF genealogy software program, if not what are you using ?
 
Tomorrow's another day... stay focused...
 
to be contiued...
 
Pat
----- Original Message -----
From: aflore2855@gmail.com
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2012 4:26:50 PM
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Simona De Silva and

Pat..

Thanks i tried really hard but for nothing.I also tried looking through each son of theirs to see if their grandparents were named their and nothing i dislike how in mostly baptism records they don't have the grandparents name and also in marriages they don't have the groom and bride's parents.

Sorry i accidently typed my name their i have no idea why.
Just trying not get banned from this website again got to follow the rules.

Abram

Comentario

Alicia,

 

Thank you  for the kind words.

 

I must admit he was "trying my patients," (LOL) but I kept thinking that he was someones grandson the same age as my dear and only  grandson Nicholas...

 

Abram or should I say Primo Abram,

 

After inputting your information this is what my PAF program came up with...

 

Abram Flores and Florentino L Corbera are 3rd cousins 3 times removed.  Their common ancestors are Jose Miguel de Aguirre and Maria Guadalupe Calixtra Aguayo Losano...

 

Line of Descent to Common Ancestor

First Person

Abram Flores
Enedelia Flores Armas
Candelario Armas
Mauricio Armas
Macdonia Jauregui
Francisca Gonzalez
Maria Jacinta Losano Aguirre
Jose Miguel de Aguirre & Maria Guadalupe Calixtra Aguayo Losano

 

Second Person
Line of Descent to Common Ancestor

Florentino L Corbera
Maria Refugio Perez
Jose Fernando Aguirre Perez
Maria Aniseta Losano Aguirre
Jose Miguel de Aguirre & Maria Guadalupe Calixtra Aguayo Losano

 

Abram FLORES and Florentino L CORBERA are 3rd cousins 3 times removed.  Their common ancestors are Jose Miguel de AGUIRRE and Maria Guadalupe Calixtra Aguayo LOSANO .

 

Florentino L CORBERA and Enedelia Flores ARMAS are 3rd cousins 2 times removed.  Their common ancestors are Jose Miguel de AGUIRRE  and Maria Guadalupe Calixtra Aguayo LOSANO

 

Abram double check that I have your line in correct order.  Once we verify that my input is correct then I'll create a GEDCOM file for you.

 

Prima Pat and Primo Tino

Tracy CA

 

p.s Where are you located?

 

   

 
----- Original Message -----
From: "Alicia Carrillo"
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2012 11:12:35 PM
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Thanks Pat and Abram!

Pat,
You are wonderful to be working so patiently with Abram.

Abram,
Congratulations, you're on your way to being a genealogist, listening to the experts who can guide you through this tedious but wonderful process, the search for our ancestors.

Alicia,
San Jose, Ca

________________________________
 From: Pat Corbera
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2012 10:59 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Simona De Silva and
 

Abram,
 
I know you're trying... Yep! we all must follow the rules... that's life.
 
Ok, we'll just set this couple aside for now... there's plenty more to research.
 
Hopefully someone will help with the translation request...
 
Be sure and document all that you did find...
 
Are you using the PAF genealogy software program, if not what are you using ?
 
Tomorrow's another day... stay focused...
 
to be contiued...
 
Pat
----- Original Message -----
From: aflore2855@gmail.com
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2012 4:26:50 PM
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Simona De Silva and

Pat..

Thanks i tried really hard but for nothing.I also tried looking through each son of theirs to see if their grandparents were named their and nothing i dislike how in mostly baptism records they don't have the grandparents name and also in marriages they don't have the groom and bride's parents.

Sorry i accidently typed my name their i have no idea why.
Just trying not get banned from this website again got to follow the rules.

Abram

Comentario

Abram,
 
I'll check it out, but PAF is a free genealogy software program and very easy to use.
 
I have used other programs in the past, but alway come back to PAF.  It's the LDS software program.
 
Check it out online and compare it with ancestry.com. 
 
Pat
----- Original Message -----
From: aflore2855@gmail.com
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2012 9:12:36 AM
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Thanks Pat and Abram!

Pat,

Yea they are all correct.I am using the ancestry family tree it's okay i suppose.

Abram..

Comentario

Abram

Don't forget what Emilie told you, don't trust the trees that are on Ancestry.com.

Remember, you have to continue to do your own research, otherwise you don't know if what your following on Ancestry is really your line. Don't trust what other people put out there to be your family. Only trust what your findings are based on your own research. You must be willing to do the work yourself and then after that hard work, put it down onto a Gedcom database such as PAF, Legacy, Family Tree or other genealogy software.

Alicia

________________________________
From: "aflore2855@gmail.com"
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2012 9:08 AM
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Thanks Pat and Abram!

Alicia,

Thanks alicia,geneaology is really fun.Each time i find a new ancestor of mines i get so happy.

Abram -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List

To post, send email to:
research(at)nuestrosranchos.org

To change your subscription, log on to:
http://www.nuestrosranchos.org

Comentario

Yes, Abram,

I was just about to tell you what Alicia just did. If you have your tree on Ancestry, be sure to make it Private, don't leave it as Public. Also ignore the shaking leaves (the "hints") that their robot Family Tree Maker software gives you. It mostly is just a robot that searches everything everyone puts in and then tries to link you to someone with the same or similar name, when they lived in a different area or different era of time.

I tried the Family Tree Maker software and hated it because it would automatically open up Ancestry. I use the PAF that is free to download from FamilySearch, and I can produce all kinds of descendancy reports, etc from it. You enter data into PAF just like you would in the Ancestry trees.

I do subscribe to Ancestry, but only to look for military, census, and border crossing records, but Family Search also has that information. I don't put my trees online anymore and only share my trees now with someone that proves to me that they have at least one ancestor in common and with the Nuestros Ranchos website. I leave messages on the message boards on Ancestry and on GenForum, etc, with just the names I am researching so people can still find me online.

Emilie
Port Orchard, WA

> Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2012 10:17:25 -0800
> From: alliecar@pacbell.net
> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Thanks Pat and Abram!
>
> Abram
>
> Don't forget what Emilie told you, don't trust the trees that are on Ancestry.com.
>
> Remember, you have to continue to do your own research, otherwise you don't know if what your following on Ancestry is really your line. Don't trust what other people put out there to be your family. Only trust what your findings are based on your own research. You must be willing to do the work yourself and then after that hard work, put it down onto a Gedcom database such as PAF, Legacy, Family Tree or other genealogy software.
>
> Alicia
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: "aflore2855@gmail.com"
> To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2012 9:08 AM
> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Thanks Pat and Abram!
>
>
> Alicia,
>
> Thanks alicia,geneaology is really fun.Each time i find a new ancestor of mines i get so happy.
>
> Abram -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
> Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List
>
> To post, send email to:
> research(at)nuestrosranchos.org
>
> To change your subscription, log on to:
> http://www.nuestrosranchos.org

Help on reading this baptism document

Published by abram101 –
Foros
Genealogy Research

The only part i need help reading is Maria De La Encarnacio Losano grandparents?

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-15089-4437-10?cc=1410092&wc=…

Comentarios

Comentario

Abram,

 

The A.P. (paternal grandparents) are Manuel Losano and Agustina de Aguayo. Manuel and Agustina are my husband's 3rd Great Grandparents. 

 

I have Manuel as Jose Manuel Torres Losano married on 30
Apr 1777 Nochistlan, Zacatecas to Maria Agustina de Aguayo.

 

My mother-in-law was born in the Jabonera...

 

Pat Silva Corbera

 

 
 

----- Original Message -----
From: aflore2855@gmail.com
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2012 11:05:45 AM
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Help on reading this baptism document

The only part i need help reading is Maria De La Encarnacio Losano grandparents?

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-15089-4437-10?cc=1410092&wc=…

Comentario

I read it after enlarging it as:
 
Maria de la Encarnacion born in la Jabonera 20 March 1827 6am
parents: Citizen Jasinto Losano and Maria Dolores Aguirre
paternal grandparents: Manuel Losano and Agustina Aguayo
maternal grandparents: Joaquin Aguirre and Lorensa Corona
godparents: Jose Guadalupe Losano and Maria Sostenes Peres

________________________________
From: "aflore2855@gmail.com"
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2012 11:05 AM
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Help on reading this baptism document

The only part i need help reading is Maria De La Encarnacio Losano grandparents?

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-15089-4437-10?cc=1410092&wc=…

Comentario

Abram,

They are Joaquin Aguirre and Lorensa Corona.

When looking to read a document, read all the other records that surround the one you're looking at and try to familiarize yourself with the letters or the script of that particular scribe. This is always a clue as to how each individual formed his letters.

Hope this helps,

Alicia,
San Jose, Ca

________________________________
From: "aflore2855@gmail.com"
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2012 11:05 AM
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Help on reading this baptism document

The only part i need help reading is Maria De La Encarnacio Losano grandparents?

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-15089-4437-10?cc=1410092&wc=…

Marriage: Help Civil record or Catholic Church records?

Published by maven200 –
Foros
Genealogy Research

Hello Everyone,

I am trying to locate a marriage record from my Great( 3x) grandparents- Felicitas Magallanes and Cirilo (Sirilo) Alvarez married June 8, 1881 in Tlaltenango de Sanchez Roman, Zac.

Comentarios

Comentario

 there might be a marriage record in this film  443974  date 1858 to 1885 there are 654 pages so I would start at abt page 450 find the year 1881 and go from there.. hope this helps you. (this is a church record)
 
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-15529-73531-33?cc=1410092&wc…

________________________________
From: Pauline Avendano
To: "research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org"
Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2012 3:31 PM
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Marriage: Help Civil record or Catholic Church records?

Hello Everyone,

I am trying to locate a marriage record from my Great( 3x) grandparents- Felicitas Magallanes and Cirilo (Sirilo) Alvarez married June 8, 1881 in Tlaltenango de Sanchez Roman, Zac.

As I am new to this, I have looked in the Catholic Church record with no luck.  Here is the IGI listing:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/JZXY-XPK

Should I be looking in the civil records or Catholic Church records? Also it lists the date of June 8, 1881 but in the church records there are several dates listed with each matrimonial recording. Any guidance on what to look for would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Pauline

Comentario

Pauline

If you don't find the record in the Church sources, I would look in the civil records. I have seen cases where there is no baptism or marriage record in the Church records, but there is a civil record, and vice versa.

George Fulton
Pleasanton, CA

Comentario

There is no question the record will be found in link provided by Linda.
Whenever there is an IGI listing and it has a film number the record will
be in the volume that pertains to the film number. Additionally, I haven't
seen IGI listings for Mexico that weren't for church records.

The IGI records states the record is found in film 443974
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/JZXY-XPK

The link provided by Linda is film 443974
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-15529-73531-33?cc=1410092&wc…

Armando

On Tue, Feb 21, 2012 at 8:57 PM, wrote:

> Pauline
>
> If you don't find the record in the Church sources, I would look in the
> civil records. I have seen cases where there is no baptism or marriage
> record in the Church records, but there is a civil record, and vice versa.
>
> George Fulton
> Pleasanton, CA

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