Nuestros Ranchos Site

Linda,

Do you think the actual preparation of the records were done before the actual ceremony or during/after... ?

As in my own Portuguese ancestry research...
Over 70% of parents/grandparents/godparents could not read nor write...they were at the mercy of these vital records being recorded correctly...but we have found that not to be the case, thankfully it's the exception and not the norm...

Thank you Alicia for the heads-up/reminder that some records do have errors...

Pat

----- Original Message -----
From: "Erlinda Castanon-Long"
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Friday, April 20, 2012 5:30:50 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Nochistlan-Bautismos 1870-1876-Errores

I don't believe it was the priests that filled out the records but a scribe.. I have also found many mistakes in Jerez records with transfering parents and grandparents or just plain wrong.. but remember most of the time for baptisms anyway the Mother was not there so people are guessing or she died and they never really knew who the grandparents were. I've also seen records where the words ran together so someone who could not read was obviously copying them without knowing where they break to form a word.
just my 2 cents worth.
Linda in Everett

________________________________
From: Pat Corbera
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Friday, April 20, 2012 5:15 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Nochistlan-Bautismos 1870-1876-Errores

Alicia,

Are you saying that the priest when recording these vital records
made these errors or are these errors LDS input errors?

Can you give one example...?

Pat

----- Original Message -----
From: "Alicia Carrillo"
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2012 8:42:44 PM
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Nochistlan-Bautismos 1870-1876-Errores

This is just a heads up to anyone doing research in Nochistlan but specific to film # 226675, Bautismos 1870-1873, it's full of errors, listing the wrong names or surnames at least 20-30 % of the time so make sure to double check off of other records the surnames of the grandparents or even for that matter of the parents. Too many mistakes to list!!
I wish I could write and notify someone to make the corrections but I guess I'm at least 140 years too late.

Un aviso a todos los que hacen estudios en family search, especificamente los archivos del rollo# 226675 de Bautismos de Nochistlan, Zacatecas, 1870-1873. Contiene muchisimos errores en los apellidos de los padres y de los abuelos.
Durante sus investigaciones cuando encuentren una partida de Bautismo, rectifiquen sus datos con otros datos de las mismas familias, de otra manera van a documentar nombres erroneos.

Quisiera dar aviso a los escribanos de estos documentos pero creo que es bastante tarde, han pasado mas de 140 años.

Alicia,
San Jose, Ca

WOW! not even close...must have been a bad day for that priest or scribe.

I had a situation where the father's last name was recorded as being Cordero, but his father, the child's paternal grandfather's surname was recorded as Corbera...Guess the father could have been a Cordero with a step-father of Corbera

I have found many transcription errors of LDS input... Carrera for Corbera - Cabrera for Corbera when the document clearly has the correct spelling of Corbera... and the list goes on...

When humans are involved there will be errors...but so thankful that we can actually view many of these records online now... Many "thanks," to LDS...

Errors not only 140 years ago... on Tino's birth record Oakland CA his mother's maiden surname of Perez was entered as Paris... and my in-laws could read and write in Spanish and English, but they didn't catch that error...

Very interesting this quest we find ourselves on in the name of family history research... ;-))

Pat

----- Original Message -----
From: "Alicia Carrillo"
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Friday, April 20, 2012 6:21:04 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Nochistlan-Bautismos 1870-1876-Errores

Pat,

The errors I speak of are entry or recording errors created by the scribe or the priest, I have no way of knowing who it was. Here's a case where they spelled the first name wrong for the maternal grandfather. See the 3rd entry on the bottom left, for Las Pilas, for Maria Clara, hija legitima

The maternal grandfather's name is Procopio Gonzales but instead it states Refugio Gonzales. I know his name because it's listed on the birth record of 4 of her other siblings and I can go on and on with so many other entry errors. I was so wishing I could call someone and tell them, you made a mistake, but then I realized I was over 140 years too late. Alicia, San Jose, Ca

________________________________
From: Pat Corbera
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Friday, April 20, 2012 5:15 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Nochistlan-Bautismos 1870-1876-Errores

Alicia,

Are you saying that the priest when recording these vital records
made these errors or are these errors LDS input errors?

Can you give one example...?

Pat

----- Original Message -----
From: "Alicia Carrillo"
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2012 8:42:44 PM
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Nochistlan-Bautismos 1870-1876-Errores

This is just a heads up to anyone doing research in Nochistlan but specific to film # 226675, Bautismos 1870-1873, it's full of errors, listing the wrong names or surnames at least 20-30 % of the time so make sure to double check off of other records the surnames of the grandparents or even for that matter of the parents. Too many mistakes to list!!
I wish I could write and notify someone to make the corrections but I guess I'm at least 140 years too late.

Un aviso a todos los que hacen estudios en family search, especificamente los archivos del rollo# 226675 de Bautismos de Nochistlan, Zacatecas, 1870-1873. Contiene muchisimos errores en los apellidos de los padres y de los abuelos.
Durante sus investigaciones cuando encuentren una partida de Bautismo, rectifiquen sus datos con otros datos de las mismas familias, de otra manera van a documentar nombres erroneos.

Quisiera dar aviso a los escribanos de estos documentos pero creo que es bastante tarde, han pasado mas de 140 años.

Alicia,
San Jose, Ca

Abram

To improve your proficiency in reading and understanding these documents, I would suggest the following. It is a moderate amount of work initially, but it will, in a short time, greatly improve your ability to read these documents:

(1) Enlarge the image a lot to make it easier to read. If you can't enlarge it enough with Family Search, download the image and use image software (the one that comes with Windows is ok, others are better. I use Picassa, which is freeware.)

(2) Transcribe the document, as written, with the all abbreviations and mis-spellings. This, by itself, will make the document clearer; you may not need to do the next step.

(3) Use google translation to translate from Spanish into English the parts that are unclear (note that some clauses will be in Latin, such as "in facie Ecclise" which the Spanish-English translation will ignore).

Mis-spelled words and abbreviations will not get translated.

The google translation is a long ways from perfect, and sometimes what it gives you is a bit strange, but usually common sense can turn it into correct English.

This is certainly not a perfect process, but it can help.

As you gain proficiency, this will soon no longer be needed.

BTW: Jose Maria Albares is "hijo de padres no conosidos," so you are almost certainly at the end of the line for him. Maria de la O Duran is the daughter of Joseph de la O Duran and Manuela Sigala. This info is at the beginning of the record.

The format for this marriage record differs from many I've seen; but all the same basic information is there.

George Fulton
Pleasanton, CA

George,

I remember noticing this in many death records, many of my ancestors had no distinction as entierro menor or entierro mayor, but my 5th great grandmother Maria de los Dolores Martinez de Sotomayor y Lopez Valdes had an entierro mayor which had sparked initial interest to find out more about it.

Daniel Mendez de Torres Camino

That was my understanding, too.   

--- On Sat, 3/17/12, Emilie Garcia wrote:

From: Emilie Garcia
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Assistance with terminology
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Date: Saturday, March 17, 2012, 9:31 PM

I always thought "de limosna" meant that the sacrament was given "out of charity"  or alms for the poor.  I think the rich people always gave donations, but the poor people couldn't. 

Emilie
Port Orchard, WA

> Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2012 13:40:33 -0700
> From: dpdelgado@jps.net
> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Assistance with terminology
>
> George,
>
> The phrase "entierro menor" denotes a type of liturgy or rite associated with a church burial. The word "fabrica" [accent on 'a'] refers to a church building fund. The rest of the phrase refers to the money of the day. Could "se" be the word "de"?, if not then the "se" doesn't make sense syntactically. All the clergy I have met over the years resist the notion of "charging" for the 'services' they provide. The phrase you noted is more of a personal note than sentence.
>
> David Delgado
> Albany, CA
>
> -----Original Message-----
> >From: gpf13@aol.com
> >Sent: Mar 17, 2012 10:40 AM
> >To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> >Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Assistance with terminology
> >
> >I have seen several death records from Asientos in the mid 1790s with a clause similar to "se entierro menor en fabrica de quatro pesos seis reales".
> >
> >Other records are annotated "limosna," which I assume means the person was poor, and was buried without a donation or payment to the Church.
> >
> >When I try a computer translation of this clause (such as with google), the result makes no sense.
> >
> >Is this amount a donation, or is this what it cost to be buried by the Church.
> >
> >George Fulton

George,

I discussed "de limosna" with my husband, and he told me about some of the reasons for the Protestant Reformation in Europe. One was "simony", the practice of "selling tickets" out of purgatory to insure Heaven. Also, dukes could even buy the Papacy without even having been priests first. Ex-communication was also a threat held over the heads of people who opposed certain practices. People felt the Church really could condemn your soul to purgatory and brand you an infidel.

Emilie
Port Orchard, WA

> To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> From: gpf13@aol.com
> Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2012 17:04:34 -0700
> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Terminology
>
> David
>
> Thanks for the reply. I took another look at the records, and the actual language varies slightly from one record to another. I may have copied the phrase incorrectly. The whole phrase most often is something like "di sepultura eccca [note: there are 3 c's in the abbreviation] con entierro menor en fabrica seis pesos seis reales". This particular record is on image 287, Asientos Defunciones 1785/98, and is the record for Bernardo Francisco Padilla.
>
> The peso, in the 18th century, was a large silver coin comprised of 8 reales (so-called "piece of eight"; our dollar is based on this coin). Six pesos 6 reales seems to be a significant amount of money, although I have nothing on which to base the purchasing power of the peso.
>
> As I recall, one of the things that drove Benito Juarez's reforms concerning the Church in 1857 were the expenses associated with the sacraments.
>
> George Fulton
> Pleasanton, CA

Alicia,

I found the following definition of the phrase on p. 438 of the Real Academia's dictionary, 1956 edition: "derechos de fabrica: rentas o derechos que se cobran en las iglesias por ciertos actos, como bautizos, entieros y otros, que sirven para repararlas o para costear los gastos del culto"... Earlier in the full page discussion you see that the word "derechos" is used in the sense of a monetary entitlement. Of course you know that "causo" means that someone paid the costs. Some locations use the phrase without using "derechos" but the meaning is the same.

I hope this is helpful to you.

David Delgado
Albany, CA

-----Original Message-----
>From: alliecar@pacbell.net
>Sent: Mar 27, 2012 3:14 AM
>To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
>Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Burial Terminology
>
>To follow up on previous comments about defunciones or death records, I have been finding in Nochistlan, film # 226940 where it says and I quote, "Causo derechos a la fabrica de 3 pesos y seis reales. It was entierro humilde or humble burial but I still don't understand what it means when it says "Causo derechos a la fabrica" Does anyone out there know?
>
>En comentarios anteriores alguien pregunto el significado de la frase "Cause derechos a la fabrica de 3 pesos y seis reales"
>
>Gracias,
>Alicia

Linda,

I've seen your Geneanet page but it does not mention the godparents and
witnesses or ranches of the births took place. No links are available to
the original documents either. If you were to add that info I could try to
find something for you. You might also add your tree to miparentela.com and
genoom.com. if you haven't already, to see if you can find a match in those
trees. They use better algorithms than Ancestry because they use the
parents and childrens' names as well as dates. They are also used by people
from around the world. Ancestry only uses names so a homonym from the 18th
century could show as a match for someone in the 1930 U.S. census which is
impossible and is focused on U.S. and northern European databases.

Armando

On Thu, Apr 19, 2012 at 1:03 PM, wrote:

> Thank you so much, Jorge, for your fine translation. You are correct in
> stating that is not my grandfather many times removed. Though this person
> may be related, I don't know how. I will continue paging through the
> records looking for Joaquin Esteban Romero y Chavez. I have many of his
> children and their wives recorded and the family is growing. The Romero
> family has been in Tepatitlan since my GGGG Grandfather Joaquin Esteban
> Romero. I haven't found where he came from or when, but I'm sure one of
> these days, I will. Especially with the help of our friends at
> NuestrosRanchos.
>
> I plan on using your translation to help me "read" through the death
> records as they mostly follow the same pattern. I'll bet the record
> keepers were happy when rubber stamps were invented so they could stamp out
> the boilerplate and simply fill in the blanks.
>
> Thank you again for your help.
>
> Linda Romero
>
> Researching: Romero, Romero y Chavez, de la Torre, Pena, Camarena,
> Gutierrez, Padilla, Gomez Hurtado de Mendoza