I am looking at the defunto records in familysearch.org of Huejuquilla El Alto of Jalisco, Mexico years 1720 - 1761. I found a couple of interesting people:
For #1, the last name is Orendayn (the spelling located in the text of the record).
--Rosalinda
This will be a study of Historical events of the Sephardic (Spanish) Jews who were brought over from Spain to the Americas and Mexico territory to escape Genocide.
My oldest confirmed ancestor on my mother's side, Jose Augustin Narvaez, was of a family of Sephardic Jews. His family's presence in the New World dates back to the early to mid- 1500s and one of his family was tried by the Inquisition in Mexico. I was able to find information about Jose's birth in Aguascalientes from a posting on FamilySearch.com by an LDS member, but have been unable to confirm the information independently. I thought I would find his baptismal/christening history in Nuestros Ranchos film library but was unsuccessful. If he and his family practiced the Jewish faith in the late 1700s (he was born around 1775), that might account for his name not appearing in these records. I don't know if Jewish families practice a ritual similar to the Catholics and, if so, how to locate such records if they exist. If anyone has any additional information on this subject, please respond via this posting or directly to me at michael_dickey@comcast.net. Thanks.
Michael,
Check out the section titled "The Jewish Influence," on my website located at
http://www.patriciajcorbera.com.
Rufina Bernadetti Silva Mausenbaum is a fountain of information on the subject, as well as the articles written by Prof. Eduardo Mayone Dias.
Pat Silva Corbera
----- Original Message -----
From: "michael dickey"
To: general@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 1:49:04 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Sephardic Jews
My oldest confirmed ancestor on my mother's side, Jose Augustin Narvaez, was of a family of Sephardic Jews. His family's presence in the New World dates back to the early to mid- 1500s and one of his family was tried by the Inquisition in Mexico. I was able to find information about Jose's birth in Aguascalientes from a posting on FamilySearch.com by an LDS member, but have been unable to confirm the information independently. I thought I would find his baptismal/christening history in Nuestros Ranchos film library but was unsuccessful. If he and his family practiced the Jewish faith in the late 1700s (he was born around 1775), that might account for his name not appearing in these records. I don't know if Jewish families practice a ritual similar to the Catholics and, if so, how to locate such records if they exist. If anyone has any additional information on this subject, please respond via this posting or directly to me at michael_dickey@comcast.net. Thanks.
Tenna Salas more links to Sephardism
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXzXHJNWTDY
http://obadiahsrevelationtoday.blogspot.com/2009/11/operation-serape.ht…
Tenna Salas, You can purchase this book "The Last Exodus" at www.Amazon.com or you can go onto his website at http://www.4sephardim.com/
Tenna Salas, In this book "The last Exodus" there is a statment about a Conquistador who helped developed the ports from the Rio Panuco to Santa Elana on the Atlantic coast. He aspired to settle the area between Tampico and the mines of Mazapil and Zacatecas; and to extend exploration and settlement across Mexico : form sea to sea" He was thus grated authority to "discover, pacify and settle" a new province to be called the Nuevo Reyno de Leon. The Spanish Inquisition in Mexico accused Carvajal because of his Jewish faith. While he had remained a Catholic publicly, members of his extended family had reverted to Judaism. Among these, the most notable one was his niece, Isabel Rodriquez because of her fervent faith in the God of her ancestors, the Jews. as a result, Carvajal was sented on February 23, 1590, to a six year exile from New Spain (which is Mexico). Before the year was out, while still awaiting execution of the sentence, Carvajal died in the Mexico prison. The primary reason for his stiff sentence was his failure to "denounce" his niece for practising Judaism. This is Stated in this book on pages 93 and 94.
I remember seeing documentS wherE he was put on trial after his death. His casket was front and center as the y read the charges And confiscated his wealth. He was known as A devout christian who Also kept the sabbath
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Sent: Nov 9, 2009 11:05 AM
Tenna Salas, In this book "The last Exodus" there is a statment about a Conquistador who helped developed the ports from the Rio Panuco to Santa Elana on the Atlantic coast. He aspired to settle the area between Tampico and the mines of Mazapil and Zacatecas; and to extend exploration and settlement across Mexico : form sea to sea" He was thus grated authority to "discover, pacify and settle" a new province to be called the Nuevo Reyno de Leon. The Spanish Inquisition in Mexico accused Carvajal because of his Jewish faith. While he had remained a Catholic publicly, members of his extended family had reverted to Judaism. Among these, the most notable one was his niece, Isabel Rodriquez because of her fervent faith in the God of her ancestors, the Jews. as a result, Carvajal was sented on February 23, 1590, to a six year exile from New Spain (which is Mexico). Before the year was out, while still awaiting execution of the sentence, Carvajal died in the Mexico prison. Th
e primary reason for his stiff sentence was his failure to "denounce" his niece for practising Judaism. This is Stated in this book on pages 93 and 94.
Tenna Salas
I live in Wichita, KS I just came back from Israel this past Saturday, I spent 10 days there It was beautiful, I purchased a book called the last exodus and it speaks of the Sephardic Jews returning back to there original roots. This book was written by Dell F. Sanchez. Dr. Sanchez has been an international speaker in Mexico, Poland, Sweden, Norway, Sapin and all across America. He has traveled to Israel two to three timeas a year since 1996. His last trip was devoted to field observation and personal interviews with Israelis all across Israel. He is the founder of former CEO of Hispanic Community Educational Television, Incorporated known as KHCE TV-23/cable 22. He is the executive producer and host of a 60 miniute Spanish program called, "Liberacion." Both are viewed daily in San Antionio and south and central TX. This is a little bit of who Dr. Sanches is, he mentions in his book that he had decided to watch a movie called Schindler's List. by Steven spielberg who portrayed one facet of the Jewish Holocaust that occurred during Hitler's revenge in the 1940's, His soul was bursting with such sad and grievous emotion. he says that he realized that there was indeed, some connection between those jews and his soul. his father, Delfino Sanchez 11, shared with him his new discovery regarding the true racial roots of his own father Delfino 1, his father was in his mid 70's when he finally found out a very well kept family secret-that as an infant, his Dad had been given up for adoption by father while he was a high ranking officer in the Mexican Military-who happened to be a Jew from Spain. Suddenly, he was able to see why his Sanchez clan was so peculiar, especially his own Dad. he began to investigate which led up to him writing this book.
There are many other publications about this subject his is only one of them.
here is a list:
Aliyah! The exodus Continues
Aliyah! El Exodo Continua
Sephardic Destiny
Destino del Defardim
Obadiah- The Despised prophet of Sephardim
abdias-El Profeta Despreciado del Sefardim
History of the Marranos by: Cecil Roth
"Sephardim-The Jews from Spain"
by: Paloma Diaz-Mas, (translated by Geroge K. Zucker)
"The Duke of Naxos-of the house nasi"
by: Cecil Roth
"History de la Inquisicion"
by Samuel vila
"Israel my Beloved"
by: Kay Arthur
"My people: the story of the Jews"
by Abba Solomon Eban
My great grandmother would make comments to my mother and my grandmother that she was of royal blood. While discussing this with one historian and chronologist of Jalisco, he explained that she was probably of Jewish origin and that was the reason she would claim to be of royal blood. He stated that it was popular to believe in the special birth right without actually disclosing the Jewish link.
Has anyone heard of this comment of being of royal blood to imply that they were Jews or of Jewish ancestry?
Rosie Cordova
A lot of people from los altos of jalisco descenD froM king enrique II and his brotHers fadrique And tello. Their Parents were the king alfonso of castile and his jewish mistress. She was a converso to catholicism.
Many of the 1st. European settlers in los altos de jalisco were already related many times over through these brothers or the hijar and frias clan, or the hurtado de mendoza clan, or the altamirano clan. I say clan but I mean families with multitude connections thRough intermarriage.
And they continued marrying family once in los altos. In my family tree I have 2nd and 3rd cousins marrying with occasionAl 1st cousins.
ThE strange part is that even though there is that jewish connection there have been some in. The family tree that were antisemitic. I know of at least 2 officials of the inquisition in my family tree.
R A Ricci
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Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal blood
Sent: Nov 27, 2009 11:15 PM
My great grandmother would make comments to my mother and my grandmother that she was of royal blood. While discussing this with one historian and chronologist of Jalisco, he explained that she was probably of Jewish origin and that was the reason she would claim to be of royal blood. He stated that it was popular to believe in the special birth right without actually disclosing the Jewish link.
Has anyone heard of this comment of being of royal blood to imply that they were Jews or of Jewish ancestry?
Rosie Cordova
Yes I agree...it is much debated that the altenos (early society) were anti semitic, yet
three semitic descent families were able to intermarry into mainstream alteno socety
The Padilla Davila, Renteria and others. It is confirmed most of the early European settlers
in Los Altos were already related over and over in the book, La Secreta relacion de los
Conquistadores. The Ruiz de Velasco were related to the viceroy Mendoza and (I suspect
descend from the Viceroy Luis de Velasco.
The Hurtado de Mendoza family is the main source of royal blood in Los Altos, I am currently
working (or at least one of my projects) is to study the Hernandez de Arellano family; I already
suspect who don Toribio's parents were.
The de Anda y Altamirano family was another powerful Spanish family. Includes various conquistadores
and is a compound surname, de Anda and Altamirano de Castilla. I was able to trace the Altamirano
de Castilla back to Pedro I 'el Cruel', rey de Castilla. In Mexico City is where de Anda and Altamirano
de Castilla was compounded when a marriage took place creating a new name, de Anda y Altamirano
and eventually made it to Nueva Galicia and present day Los altos region.
I personally dont think, us altenos 'are' royalty; our ancestors were so we do have the blood. Today
were are just descendants of the aristocracy that once (some might argue oligarchy) ruled Mejico.
I have been fascinated with Los Altos; So much history and so much craziness.
I also have two instances with the inquisition. Andres Ruiz de Esparza and I descend
from the General Inquisitiator Francisco Martin de Gallardo.
Regards,
Daniel Camino
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Re: "I personally dont think, us altenos 'are' royalty; our ancestors were so we do have the blood. Today were are just descendants of the aristocracy that once (some might argue oligarchy) ruled Mejico."
I am not sure how to take this whole thread. I read it and the only thing that comes to mind is the saying about the potato: the best part is underground. I prefer not being from royalty and thinking that many of us are the best part, and it doesn't really matter what is underground (the good, the bad, and the ugly). We can not chose the wombs we are born in. Having said this, genealogy is a fascinating topic.
Ed
I'd like add my two cents worth about " Royal blood". The vast majority of
the "nobles' that settled in Mexico were *hidalgos *or* escuderos*. Hidalgo
was a class of lower nobility given very freely in Spain as there were no
lands attached to it or exemptions expected. Most were descendants of a
titled person who did not inherit the title, an example is every son who was
not the first born. Escudero was give for a military acheivment. To say
these people were *royal *, with the blood of kings and Queens is a stretch.
An excellent picture of what it meant to be a Spanish Hidalgo is found in
the book ; *A Nation of Shepards* by Daniel Lucero. It describes the journey
of Francisco Robledo from Spain to Mexico, then as part of the Onate
expedition to settle Santa Fe around 1600.
If you ask any middle or upper class person in Mexico about their family
origin, most will tell you their grandfather or his father came from Spain.
Then they will tell you that they are of noble birth. Almost all really have
no idea when or where that occured. It's a mass delusion that's become
ingrained in the national character.
Eric Robledo Edgar
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Dear Eric;
There were exemptions and privileges for the hidalgos, please check the Pleitos de Hidalguía in las Chancillerías, that theme has been largely studied. Hidalgos did not have to pay the taxes that the pecheros did, they had the right of the use of coats of arms, privileges of certain positions in the government: Captains, Mayors, etc.
For a better understanding of what an hidalgo is, I recommend you "Cuadernos de Doctrina Nobiliaria" by Vicente de Cadenas, I am sure you will like it.
What you say also happens in the US and the rest of the world, I have read of many people that believe they are nobility just because some ancestor was a noble in the XIV C.
On the rest of your comment I agree, royal is to belong to a royal lineage.
Finally, if you want to read which families belonged to the titled nobility in México there is "Estudios Genealógicos" by Ortega y Pérez-Gallardo.
Best regards,
Thank you for the recommendation, I'll look out for it.
On Wed, Dec 2, 2009 at 6:22 PM, wrote:
> Dear Eric;
>
> There were exemptions and privileges for the hidalgos, please check the
> Pleitos de Hidalguía in las Chancillerías, that theme has been largely
> studied. Hidalgos did not have to pay the taxes that the pecheros did, they
> had the right of the use of coats of arms, privileges of certain positions
> in the government: Captains, Mayors, etc.
> For a better understanding of what an hidalgo is, I recommend you
> "Cuadernos de Doctrina Nobiliaria" by Vicente de Cadenas, I am sure you will
> like it.
>
> What you say also happens in the US and the rest of the world, I have read
> of many Smiths that believe they are nobility just because some ancestor was
> a noble in the XIV C.
> On the rest of your comment I agree, royal is to belong to a royal lineage.
>
> Best regards,
>
>
Yes, I can relate to this, I once asked my tios in Mejico, where their ancestors came from
they said Spain, Portugal and France. Which did prove to be right but they said their grandfather
which in reality it was a distant ancestor but the lineage was right of course.
I think they really just mean they are Spanish Mexican, probably
not necessarily there grandfather was born in Spain. I have noticied
(I lived in Mexico for a year) the more European blood you have
people respect you? Not sure what Im trying to describe. :(
-Daniel
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Both of my Mexican families believed they were of Spanish descent. The
Callejas fiercly claimed to be descended from the last Viceroy, Felix Maria
Calleja. My grandmother often told
us how her family in Oaxaca had his uniform as a treasured relic and they
were forced to leave it behind during revolution. Not to be disrespectful, I
never asked how we were related.
As I started collecting the vital records, it became clear it was not true.
My father was dismayed I would spend such energy to disprove his heritage. I
was actually trying to prove it , but
found otherwise. The trail ends in Sola de Vega , Oaxaca with an exposto
child adopted by the local hacendado around 1700. Maybe no Spanish blood at
all. The maternal part,
Zamora, was from Miahuatlan, Oaxaca, and involves a priest who seems to have
changed his mind about a career.
The Robledo's were less concerned with royalty, but much more with the
Castilian origin. My last document for that family listed a Don Jose Maria
Robledo, *Espanoles*, *Caballero.*
**
With no paper to follow, I had a Y DNA test since this was my paternal
line. The results were for Haplogroup O, south asian,not native
American, closest matches in the Phillipines.
Again no Spanish blood, but I think a much more interesting story. The
ancestor likely sailed in on a Manila Galleon, he or his descendants made
good and somewere along were
accepted as Spanish. If I had found this out when my father was still
around I know he would have been furious and claimed some kind of
conspiracy. Maybe dis-owned me. There are
still a few of his cousins in Mexico that I won't tell. Around 1900, most of
that generation married into American and English families that were
working in mining, oil and railroads. Today,
the surviving elders will still celebrate their Spanish heritage first
. I think it's funny that people choose to place less importance on what
they are, than on what they might be. ( Or not be)
Eric Robledo Edgar
*
*
On Wed, Dec 2, 2009 at 9:41 PM, Daniel Mendez de Camino y Soto <
mendezdelcamino@live.com> wrote:
>
> Yes, I can relate to this, I once asked my tios in Mejico, where their
> ancestors came from
>
> they said Spain, Portugal and France. Which did prove to be right but they
> said their grandfather
>
> which in reality it was a distant ancestor but the lineage was right of
> course.
>
>
> I think they really just mean they are Spanish Mexican, probably
>
> not necessarily there grandfather was born in Spain. I have noticied
>
> (I lived in Mexico for a year) the more European blood you have
>
> people respect you? Not sure what Im trying to describe. :(
>
>
>
> -Daniel
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Chat with Messenger straight from your Hotmail inbox.
>
> http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/hotmail_bl1/hotmail_bl1.as…
This is cool my R1b (Y-DNA) and my mtDNA is also R1b. Mostly found on western and central
Europe. I think genetics is fascinating!!!!!
-Daniel
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Daniel,
Are you saying that your YDNA and your mtDNA is R1b?
My biological brother's son tested out R1b1b2, and my mtDNA test results placed me in the H1 Haplogroup.
I didn't think the R1b applied to mtDNA?
Pat Silva Corbera
Tracy, CA
----- Original Message -----
From: "Daniel Mendez de Camino y Soto"
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thursday, December 3, 2009 12:37:21 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal Blood
This is cool my R1b (Y-DNA) and my mtDNA is also R1b. Mostly found on western and central
Europe. I think genetics is fascinating!!!!!
-Daniel
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Well, in my blood the only "royalty" that runs thru it is that of Crown Royal. Just kiddin, but on a serious matter, I was reading the beginning of this thread as it pertained to Sephardic ancestory and I wanted to comment that my wife's family is from Northern Nuevo Leon and their customs, food, and spanish is oddly different from my parents' family from Zacatecas and SLP. As soon as I finish my geneaology I will begin hers -J. Antonio Camacho
I found the comments from J. Antonio, Leon, and Eric (see below) very interesting, since in my research from Zacatecas to Santa Fe, New Mexico to Juarez I have found that my ancestors have been marrying into the same families at least since the late 1600s which is as far back as I can get. It had nothing to do with wealth or social position. They were all farmers, whether they owned haciendas or not. A few were officers stationed at presidios.
Starting in New Mexico almost 300 years ago, I can see that my ancestors were much like what J. Antonio describes in Nuevo Leon, where people were isolated, probably had Sephardic ancestry due to their customs, food, and an archaic Spanish that sounds so close to Ladino.
In Zacatecas I found that my father was misled to think that his great-grandfather, known as "el Frances", was not French, but from people who had been in Zacatecas for generations, all described as espanol, not a Frenchman among them. I think this is because the French had been there, and those are the only light-skinned, blue eyed people they knew and remembered. Because of the meztizaje, some dark people in a family were told "saliste puro indio", where their siblings were "gueros".
In Juarez, the Lower El Paso Valley in Texas, and the neighboring Mesilla Valley in southern New Mexico starting in the late 1600s when my ancestors escaped the Indian revolution in Northern New Mexico and resettled in those areas, just about all the families intermarried. This had nothing to do with "puresa de sangre" or royalty or wealth, I don't believe, but rather the isolation and the provincial mindset of the people themselves. The formed clans, as in Old England, Scotland, and Ireland.
Even here in the United States people joke about white trash or "rednecks" in the South and Appalachia who "marry their cousins" and are inbred. Those people are usually dirt poor. Does anyone remember the feuds between the Hatfield and McCoy clans several generations ago that started because a girl from one clan wanted to marry a boy from another clan? Shades of Romeo and Juliet.
Today there are people in Utah, Arizona, and Texas that isolate themselves as distinct Mormon clans, separate from mainstream Mormons, where it is known that the leaders act much like chieftans of old and decide that cousins should marry rather than marry out of their clans.
So, this intermarrying is not or has been just the custom of Altenos, but rather of people who are isolated and provincial regardless of color or economic/social status.
Emilie
Port Orchard, WA
----- Original Message -----
From: J. Antonio
Well, in my blood the only "royalty" that runs thru it is that of Crown Royal. Just kiddin, but on a serious matter, I was reading the beginning of this thread as it pertained to Sephardic ancestory and I wanted to comment that my wife's family is from Northern Nuevo Leon and their customs, food, and spanish is oddly different from my parents' family from Zacatecas and SLP. As soon as I finish my geneaology I will begin hers -J. Antonio Camacho
I still have difficulty understanding why people claim french blood just becaause they were white.
Like Don Mariano gonzalez leal said, la gente mejicana es blanca por que sus antepasados eran espanoles.
The Spaniards were also white europeans. I commonly hear in Mexico "he has blue eyes b/c his grandpa
is french"
This doesnt make sense, a Spaniard can have blue eyes too.
espanol is an iffy term.
espanol is like saying American. Usually when people say american they think white.
I tink espanol could have meant any european who assimilated into Spanish society
in Mexico and were white. Becuase imagine a frenchman who immigrated to Mexico
this Grandchildren wuld have married Spanish in Mexico and would have been labeled
espanol just because of his skin, diregarding his french blood.
-Daniel
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I guess i meant my YDNA!
> Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2009 18:06:38 +0000
> From: PatriciaCorbera@comcast.net
> To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal Blood
>
> Daniel,
>
> Are you saying that your YDNA and your mtDNA is R1b?
>
> My biological brother's son tested out R1b1b2, and my mtDNA test results placed me in the H1 Haplogroup.
>
> I didn't think the R1b applied to mtDNA?
>
> Pat Silva Corbera
> Tracy, CA
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Daniel Mendez de Camino y Soto"
> To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
> Sent: Thursday, December 3, 2009 12:37:21 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal Blood
>
>
> This is cool my R1b (Y-DNA) and my mtDNA is also R1b. Mostly found on western and central
>
> Europe. I think genetics is fascinating!!!!!
>
>
> -Daniel
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Windows Live Hotmail gives you a free,exclusive gift.
> http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/hotmail_bl1/hotmail_bl1.as…
Thank you Daniel...what is your mtDNA?
Pat
----- Original Message -----
From: "Daniel Mendez de Camino y Soto"
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thursday, December 3, 2009 11:21:40 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal Blood
I guess i meant my YDNA!
> Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2009 18:06:38 +0000
> From: PatriciaCorbera@comcast.net
> To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal Blood
>
> Daniel,
>
> Are you saying that your YDNA and your mtDNA is R1b?
>
> My biological brother's son tested out R1b1b2, and my mtDNA test results placed me in the H1 Haplogroup.
>
> I didn't think the R1b applied to mtDNA?
>
> Pat Silva Corbera
> Tracy, CA
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Daniel Mendez de Camino y Soto"
> To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
> Sent: Thursday, December 3, 2009 12:37:21 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal Blood
>
>
> This is cool my R1b (Y-DNA) and my mtDNA is also R1b. Mostly found on western and central
>
> Europe. I think genetics is fascinating!!!!!
>
>
> -Daniel
>
>
I also think its H1; Ill need to check it again its in my massive documents and colections of papers!!!!!
I need to come up with a better organization system my closet is full of stuff!!!! :) Which is good!
-Daniel
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Spain was the first melting pot and a lot of the families that we descend from did have a lot of french blood o r basque blood.
Some of The spanish families we descend from were not white. I have accumulated ample evidence of north african blood in some of the lines from spain. One of the lines was just recently discovered because of access to old family paPers that held family secrets. These papers were in sitting in a library that had not been touched for centuries.
------Original Message------
From: Daniel Mendez de Camino y Soto
Sender: general-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
ReplyTo: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal Blood
Sent: Dec 3, 2009 6:16 PM
I still have difficulty understanding why people claim french blood just becaause they were white.
Like Don Mariano gonzalez leal said, la gente mejicana es blanca por que sus antepasados eran espanoles.
The Spaniards were also white europeans. I commonly hear in Mexico "he has blue eyes b/c his grandpa
is french"
This doesnt make sense, a Spaniard can have blue eyes too.
espanol is an iffy term.
espanol is like saying American. Usually when people say american they think white.
I tink espanol could have meant any european who assimilated into Spanish society
in Mexico and were white. Becuase imagine a frenchman who immigrated to Mexico
this Grandchildren wuld have married Spanish in Mexico and would have been labeled
espanol just because of his skin, diregarding his french blood.
-Daniel
_________________________________________________________________
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I dont doubt some families had some Jewish converso or moorish blood in the south. It also
depends on the area of Spain. Andalucia is a hotspot for Moorish DNA that might have mixed
with some people. We have to be careful about this because this is where the stereotype
that Spaniards are not white because "THEY all mixed with muslims" This stereotype
was used against Spaniards in the early 1900s to say they were not white according to
American standards. Which is ridiculous of course some ought to have moor or jewish blood
but to say all Spaniards, thats iffy. Look at the US half the people they never considered white
are white now, Spaniards, English, German Italians, etc.
-Daniel
_________________________________________________________________
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Daniel,
I have found that many Americans of Northern European descent (England, Ireland, Scotland, Scandinavia, Germany, etc) still don't consider those of Southern European descent (Spain, France, Portugal) as "white".
Emilie
----- Original Message -----
From: Daniel Mendez de Camino y Soto
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 10:08 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal Blood
I dont doubt some families had some Jewish converso or moorish blood in the south. It also
depends on the area of Spain. Andalucia is a hotspot for Moorish DNA that might have mixed
with some people. We have to be careful about this because this is where the stereotype
that Spaniards are not white because "THEY all mixed with muslims" This stereotype
was used against Spaniards in the early 1900s to say they were not white according to
American standards. Which is ridiculous of course some ought to have moor or jewish blood
but to say all Spaniards, thats iffy. Look at the US half the people they never considered white
are white now, Spaniards, English, German Italians, etc.
-Daniel
_________________________________________________________________
Get gifts for them and cashback for you. Try Bing now.
http://www.bing.com/shopping/search?q=xbox+games&scope=cashback&form=MS…
I know some still dont, the census does though. I think its ironic white basicallymeans white skin. Genetics have proven that English part of their genetic ancestry
came from Iberia (Spain) and arethe closest related tothe spaniards). Then Northern spain is mostly Celtic. I think it just shows how ignorant american societyreally is. -Daniel
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One of our moorish ancestors is from northern spain. The king of aragon kidnapped him when he defeated his father. He raised as his own and then was allowed to marry into the kings family since he was not a biological son.
Another ancestor of alteno families is the grandson of the 2nd caliph of the almohads. He converted after witnessing a miracle. His children married spaniards and are ancestors of the frias and hijar families
Another ancestor of altenos claimed to be from northern spain but were from north africa with the grandmother being a mulata. In all genealogies that I have seen of this family that are on the internet they continue the lie that they were pure white
I have other true stories.
------Original Message------
From: Daniel Mendez de Camino y Soto
Sender: general-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
ReplyTo: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal Blood
Sent: Dec 3, 2009 10:08 PM
I dont doubt some families had some Jewish converso or moorish blood in the south. It also
depends on the area of Spain. Andalucia is a hotspot for Moorish DNA that might have mixed
with some people. We have to be careful about this because this is where the stereotype
that Spaniards are not white because "THEY all mixed with muslims" This stereotype
was used against Spaniards in the early 1900s to say they were not white according to
American standards. Which is ridiculous of course some ought to have moor or jewish blood
but to say all Spaniards, thats iffy. Look at the US half the people they never considered white
are white now, Spaniards, English, German Italians, etc.
-Daniel
_________________________________________________________________
Get gifts for them and cashback for you. Try Bing now.
http://www.bing.com/shopping/search?q=xbox+games&scope=cashback&form=MS…
I dont think no one is pure anything, its just a social concept. Like in Los Altos, the average claim
is they are full white, while this might be socially true of course we all came from Africa. The human race
originated in Africa. Socially, if you were white, then you were white, it didnt matter if you
had a great grandpa who was indio. This brings up la limpieza de sangre topic. If a european and
india had a kids (mestizo). If the mestizo married a white then the kid is (Castizo). If the Castizo
married white again then the kid would be 100% white socially wise. (enough too look like a regular
european). This is very difficult social topic to explain! This whole process might have even just be
avoided so they would have to deal with it by marrying inside the family. Going back to your
point of the moorish ancestor. The alteno would still be white, its too distant to even claim as your
culture. Its like me saying Im Polish, though I have an ancestor along time ago, it doesnt mean Im polish
I claim my Spanish ancestry more because I was raised with Spanish culture. This might be why even if they
have a moorish ancestor like 6 centuries ago, you arent moro your Spanish, what ever more blood you
have thats what you are. Of course you should be proud and recognize that moorish ancestor. But one thing
IS being moorish and another is being raised espanol. In my opinion white just means assimilation,
like in USA or Mexico if you passed as a white (no one would bother to disprove you) many mestizo
families in Mexico have darker and lighter children all in the same family. It works the same in the US
as long as you look white and claim european ancestry then your white. I havent met too many
people who descend from the Frias family only a handful. I havent connected
to them...possibly in the future, there area lot of unfinished lines in my tree!
-Daniel
_________________________________________________________________
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I found this on the US census website
White (Anyone that claims ancestry from the original peoples of Europe)
Thank goodness we dont live in the most igorance of times, I know most of
the people I know do consider southern Europeans, (Portugues, Spanish,
Italians, French, someitmes GErmans and Greeks white now)
I know when part of my family immigrated from Mexico in the late 1800s early
1900s they were marked as white. But around the 1980s they were forced
to label hispanic/latino. Recently in the 90s since hispanic/latino is now just
a choice we went back to white american. Since the definition was clearly
stated: White (Anyone that claims ancestry from the original peoples of Europe).
_________________________________________________________________
Windows 7: Unclutter your desktop. Learn more.
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Perhaps you will find this article interesting:
http://www.elmundo.es/elmundo/2008/12/04/ciencia/1228409780.html
Daniel,
Not sure if this is your reply to my question about what haplogroup is your mtDNA, but if it is... are your DNA test results posted online, and if so where?
thank you,
Pat Silva Corbera
----- Original Message -----
From: "Daniel Mendez de Camino y Soto"
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thursday, December 3, 2009 6:18:49 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal Blood
I also think its H1; Ill need to check it again its in my massive documents and colections of papers!!!!!
I need to come up with a better organization system my closet is full of stuff!!!! :) Which is good!
-Daniel
Eric,
I read your posting and while reading was continously nodding my head.
I can't tell you how often in talking to people from Mexico, they claim to be of Spanish or French Ancestry, never a mention of their Mexican or native American heritage. I find it sad that we celebrate what we don't know and don't celebrate what we do know, delude ourselves with the wishful thinking rather than with the reality, whatever that reality may be.
Thanks for your postings......I have enjoyed your commentaries and wisdoms.
Alicia,
San Jose, Calif
________________________________
From: eric edgar
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Wed, December 2, 2009 11:13:21 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal Blood
Both of my Mexican families believed they were of Spanish descent. The
Callejas fiercly claimed to be descended from the last Viceroy, Felix Maria
Calleja. My grandmother often told
us how her family in Oaxaca had his uniform as a treasured relic and they
were forced to leave it behind during revolution. Not to be disrespectful, I
never asked how we were related.
As I started collecting the vital records, it became clear it was not true.
My father was dismayed I would spend such energy to disprove his heritage. I
was actually trying to prove it , but
found otherwise. The trail ends in Sola de Vega , Oaxaca with an exposto
child adopted by the local hacendado around 1700. Maybe no Spanish blood at
all. The maternal part,
Zamora, was from Miahuatlan, Oaxaca, and involves a priest who seems to have
changed his mind about a career.
The Robledo's were less concerned with royalty, but much more with the
Castilian origin. My last document for that family listed a Don Jose Maria
Robledo, *Espanoles*, *Caballero.*
**
With no paper to follow, I had a Y DNA test since this was my paternal
line. The results were for Haplogroup O, south asian,not native
American, closest matches in the Phillipines.
Again no Spanish blood, but I think a much more interesting story. The
ancestor likely sailed in on a Manila Galleon, he or his descendants made
good and somewere along were
accepted as Spanish. If I had found this out when my father was still
around I know he would have been furious and claimed some kind of
conspiracy. Maybe dis-owned me. There are
still a few of his cousins in Mexico that I won't tell. Around 1900, most of
that generation married into American and English families that were
working in mining, oil and railroads. Today,
the surviving elders will still celebrate their Spanish heritage first
. I think it's funny that people choose to place less importance on what
they are, than on what they might be. ( Or not be)
Eric Robledo Edgar
*
*
On Wed, Dec 2, 2009 at 9:41 PM, Daniel Mendez de Camino y Soto <
mendezdelcamino@live.com> wrote:
>
> Yes, I can relate to this, I once asked my tios in Mejico, where their
> ancestors came from
>
> they said Spain, Portugal and France. Which did prove to be right but they
> said their grandfather
>
> which in reality it was a distant ancestor but the lineage was right of
> course.
>
>
> I think they really just mean they are Spanish Mexican, probably
>
> not necessarily there grandfather was born in Spain. I have noticied
>
> (I lived in Mexico for a year) the more European blood you have
>
> people respect you? Not sure what Im trying to describe. :(
>
>
>
> -Daniel
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Chat with Messenger straight from your Hotmail inbox.
>
> http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/hotmail_bl1/hotmail_bl1.as…
Like Alicia I related to Eric's commentary. I would personally love to find exactly what tribes we descend from in both my maternal and paternal line but that isn't possible with the loss of their names when they became Christians. My only option is to pursue the records that are available to me.. I take great pride in every ancestor that helped get me here and would love to learn their tribes if not their real names.
I did find it interesting that in my paternal grandparents, Epitacio Castanon and Juana Sanchez both said they were Yndios and the records disprove some of that and the DNA for my grandfather said European. I guess this is one of the amazing things abt reclaiming our true family history and the genealogy we all work so hard to keep correct by working together and sharing records in Nuestrosranchos. This group helps fill the holes and tell a story of the times and lives of those whos names we have recalled. We do good work!
Linda in Boulder City
--- On Thu, 12/3/09, Alicia Carrillo wrote:
From: Alicia Carrillo
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal Blood
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Date: Thursday, December 3, 2009, 8:22 AM
Eric,
I read your posting and while reading was continously nodding my head.
I can't tell you how often in talking to people from Mexico, they claim to be of Spanish or French Ancestry, never a mention of their Mexican or native American heritage. I find it sad that we celebrate what we don't know and don't celebrate what we do know, delude ourselves with the wishful thinking rather than with the reality, whatever that reality may be.
Thanks for your postings......I have enjoyed your commentaries and wisdoms.
Alicia,
San Jose, Calif
________________________________
From: eric edgar
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Wed, December 2, 2009 11:13:21 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal Blood
Both of my Mexican families believed they were of Spanish descent. The
Callejas fiercly claimed to be descended from the last Viceroy, Felix Maria
Calleja. My grandmother often told
us how her family in Oaxaca had his uniform as a treasured relic and they
were forced to leave it behind during revolution. Not to be disrespectful, I
never asked how we were related.
As I started collecting the vital records, it became clear it was not true.
My father was dismayed I would spend such energy to disprove his heritage. I
was actually trying to prove it , but
found otherwise. The trail ends in Sola de Vega , Oaxaca with an exposto
child adopted by the local hacendado around 1700. Maybe no Spanish blood at
all. The maternal part,
Zamora, was from Miahuatlan, Oaxaca, and involves a priest who seems to have
changed his mind about a career.
The Robledo's were less concerned with royalty, but much more with the
Castilian origin. My last document for that family listed a Don Jose Maria
Robledo, *Espanoles*, *Caballero.*
**
With no paper to follow, I had a Y DNA test since this was my paternal
line. The results were for Haplogroup O, south asian,not native
American, closest matches in the Phillipines.
Again no Spanish blood, but I think a much more interesting story. The
ancestor likely sailed in on a Manila Galleon, he or his descendants made
good and somewere along were
accepted as Spanish. If I had found this out when my father was still
around I know he would have been furious and claimed some kind of
conspiracy. Maybe dis-owned me. There are
still a few of his cousins in Mexico that I won't tell. Around 1900, most of
that generation married into American and English families that were
working in mining, oil and railroads. Today,
the surviving elders will still celebrate their Spanish heritage first
. I think it's funny that people choose to place less importance on what
they are, than on what they might be. ( Or not be)
Eric Robledo Edgar
*
*
Linda, I feel sad that we won't ever know what tribe we are from, and I am not talking just about the Indios, since as you know, my espanol Olague grandfather married into the Tinajero family of espanoles who intermarried with the Surianos whose ancestry is riddled with "mulatos", and hardly any indians. What tribes in Africa were they from?
I heard that perhaps many Indians in the states of our area of research (Jalisco, Aguas, Zacatecas) were Tlaxcalans brought from the areas farther south settled earlier? Does anyone know more about this?
Mexico is mostly a land of meztizos, no? I have heard some Mexicans say "soy puro mexicano", but there is no pure mexican race--aren't most of mixed race, whether mulato, or Indian? And if you look hard enough, don't most families who claim pure Spanish ancestry really have a Jew or Indian, or African in their woodpile somewhere? I do recognize that "soy puro mexicano" is a statement of national pride. I can't seem to get that across to some Mexicans that I don't feel "mexican", and my "patria" is America, meaning the US, where I was born and raised.
I have talked to several recent immigrants doing yard work around here that everyone thinks are "mexican", but I find they are Mayans from Guatemala or Porepeches from Southern Mexico who are still close to their tribal roots and even still speak their own languages rather than Spanish at home. If they learn English, it is their third language. Even the Mayans don't understand each other; some speak Ka'anjobal and others speak Quiche. Most gringos don't know or care about the differences. Every Latino, whether from Central or South America is a "mexican" to them, and they don't have a very accepting attitude towards them. It's too bad that some groups think they are better than others, whether they are in the US or Mexico, because that doesn't foster good relationships, and is non-productive.
Emilie
Port Orchard, WA
----- Original Message -----
From: Erlinda Castanon-Long
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 12:16 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal Blood
Like Alicia I related to Eric's commentary. I would personally love to find exactly what tribes we descend from in both my maternal and paternal line but that isn't possible with the loss of their names when they became Christians. My only option is to pursue the records that are available to me.. I take great pride in every ancestor that helped get me here and would love to learn their tribes if not their real names.
I did find it interesting that in my paternal grandparents, Epitacio Castanon and Juana Sanchez both said they were Yndios and the records disprove some of that and the DNA for my grandfather said European. I guess this is one of the amazing things abt reclaiming our true family history and the genealogy we all work so hard to keep correct by working together and sharing records in Nuestrosranchos. This group helps fill the holes and tell a story of the times and lives of those whos names we have recalled. We do good work!
Linda in Boulder City
To me, being a Mexican goes beyond the facts of where I was born, where I
was raised, who my ancestors were or where they were from. It has more to do
with how I was raised, the culture, the traditions and the spiritual
connection with the place I feel I belong to.
The main reason I got into genealogy was to find out how much Mexican I was.
I wanted to know where my Mexican ancestors were from, what their names
were, what they did when they were alive, etc., but what I most wanted to
find out was how much native Mexican blood I had in me, if I had Aztec
ancestors (which later I was sadden to find out that I had almost close to
none, or even none), because to me it is important to know and understand
where I come from, how I am built.
Although I was born in the US, I don't feel that I'm American, I feel that
I'm Mexican. Even after I discovered I had way more Spanish blood than any
other (between 7/8 and 15/16), I don't feel I'm Spanish at all, I still feel
that I'm Mexican. Even after my first five years of research, when I
recently discovered that my Rodriguez de Frias lineage might come from the
Frias de Albornoz lineage (direct descendents of the Senores de Albornoz,
these being direct descendents of the Reyes de Leon and Reyes de Castilla),
I still don't feel that I am Spanish, because I'm not, I'm Mexican.
So being a Mexican, in my opinion, comes from asking yourself where your
heart belongs to, where you feel the land calls to your spirit and claims
its ownership. I found my true calling here in Los Altos de Jalisco, because
I'm an Alteno, I'm Mexican.
Ricardo Rodriguez Camarena
Valle de Guadalupe, Jalisco
-----Mensaje original-----
De: general-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
[mailto:general-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org] En nombre de Emilie
Garcia
Enviado el: Thursday, December 03, 2009 3:08 PM
Para: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Asunto: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal Blood
Linda, I feel sad that we won't ever know what tribe we are from, and I am
not talking just about the Indios, since as you know, my espanol Olague
grandfather married into the Tinajero family of espanoles who intermarried
with the Surianos whose ancestry is riddled with "mulatos", and hardly any
indians. What tribes in Africa were they from?
I heard that perhaps many Indians in the states of our area of research
(Jalisco, Aguas, Zacatecas) were Tlaxcalans brought from the areas farther
south settled earlier? Does anyone know more about this?
Mexico is mostly a land of meztizos, no? I have heard some Mexicans say
"soy puro mexicano", but there is no pure mexican race--aren't most of mixed
race, whether mulato, or Indian? And if you look hard enough, don't most
families who claim pure Spanish ancestry really have a Jew or Indian, or
African in their woodpile somewhere? I do recognize that "soy puro
mexicano" is a statement of national pride. I can't seem to get that across
to some Mexicans that I don't feel "mexican", and my "patria" is America,
meaning the US, where I was born and raised.
I have talked to several recent immigrants doing yard work around here that
everyone thinks are "mexican", but I find they are Mayans from Guatemala or
Porepeches from Southern Mexico who are still close to their tribal roots
and even still speak their own languages rather than Spanish at home. If
they learn English, it is their third language. Even the Mayans don't
understand each other; some speak Ka'anjobal and others speak Quiche. Most
gringos don't know or care about the differences. Every Latino, whether
from Central or South America is a "mexican" to them, and they don't have a
very accepting attitude towards them. It's too bad that some groups think
they are better than others, whether they are in the US or Mexico, because
that doesn't foster good relationships, and is non-productive.
Emilie
Port Orchard, WA
----- Original Message -----
From: Erlinda Castanon-Long
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 12:16 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal Blood
Like Alicia I related to Eric's commentary. I would personally love to
find exactly what tribes we descend from in both my maternal and paternal
line but that isn't possible with the loss of their names when they became
Christians. My only option is to pursue the records that are available to
me.. I take great pride in every ancestor that helped get me here and would
love to learn their tribes if not their real names.
I did find it interesting that in my paternal grandparents, Epitacio
Castanon and Juana Sanchez both said they were Yndios and the records
disprove some of that and the DNA for my grandfather said European. I guess
this is one of the amazing things abt reclaiming our true family history and
the genealogy we all work so hard to keep correct by working together and
sharing records in Nuestrosranchos. This group helps fill the holes and tell
a story of the times and lives of those whos names we have recalled. We do
good work!
Linda in Boulder City
Beautifully said. Thank you.
-Esperanza
On 12/3/09 1:59 PM, "Rick Rodriguez" wrote:
> To me, being a Mexican goes beyond the facts of where I was born, where I
> was raised, who my ancestors were or where they were from. It has more to do
> with how I was raised, the culture, the traditions and the spiritual
> connection with the place I feel I belong to.
>
> The main reason I got into genealogy was to find out how much Mexican I was.
> I wanted to know where my Mexican ancestors were from, what their names
> were, what they did when they were alive, etc., but what I most wanted to
> find out was how much native Mexican blood I had in me, if I had Aztec
> ancestors (which later I was sadden to find out that I had almost close to
> none, or even none), because to me it is important to know and understand
> where I come from, how I am built.
>
> Although I was born in the US, I don't feel that I'm American, I feel that
> I'm Mexican. Even after I discovered I had way more Spanish blood than any
> other (between 7/8 and 15/16), I don't feel I'm Spanish at all, I still feel
> that I'm Mexican. Even after my first five years of research, when I
> recently discovered that my Rodriguez de Frias lineage might come from the
> Frias de Albornoz lineage (direct descendents of the Senores de Albornoz,
> these being direct descendents of the Reyes de Leon and Reyes de Castilla),
> I still don't feel that I am Spanish, because I'm not, I'm Mexican.
>
> So being a Mexican, in my opinion, comes from asking yourself where your
> heart belongs to, where you feel the land calls to your spirit and claims
> its ownership. I found my true calling here in Los Altos de Jalisco, because
> I'm an Alteno, I'm Mexican.
>
> Ricardo Rodriguez Camarena
> Valle de Guadalupe, Jalisco
>
>
>
> -----Mensaje original-----
> De: general-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> [mailto:general-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org] En nombre de Emilie
> Garcia
> Enviado el: Thursday, December 03, 2009 3:08 PM
> Para: general@nuestrosranchos.org
> Asunto: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal Blood
>
> Linda, I feel sad that we won't ever know what tribe we are from, and I am
> not talking just about the Indios, since as you know, my espanol Olague
> grandfather married into the Tinajero family of espanoles who intermarried
> with the Surianos whose ancestry is riddled with "mulatos", and hardly any
> indians. What tribes in Africa were they from?
>
> I heard that perhaps many Indians in the states of our area of research
> (Jalisco, Aguas, Zacatecas) were Tlaxcalans brought from the areas farther
> south settled earlier? Does anyone know more about this?
>
> Mexico is mostly a land of meztizos, no? I have heard some Mexicans say
> "soy puro mexicano", but there is no pure mexican race--aren't most of mixed
> race, whether mulato, or Indian? And if you look hard enough, don't most
> families who claim pure Spanish ancestry really have a Jew or Indian, or
> African in their woodpile somewhere? I do recognize that "soy puro
> mexicano" is a statement of national pride. I can't seem to get that across
> to some Mexicans that I don't feel "mexican", and my "patria" is America,
> meaning the US, where I was born and raised.
>
> I have talked to several recent immigrants doing yard work around here that
> everyone thinks are "mexican", but I find they are Mayans from Guatemala or
> Porepeches from Southern Mexico who are still close to their tribal roots
> and even still speak their own languages rather than Spanish at home. If
> they learn English, it is their third language. Even the Mayans don't
> understand each other; some speak Ka'anjobal and others speak Quiche. Most
> gringos don't know or care about the differences. Every Latino, whether
> from Central or South America is a "mexican" to them, and they don't have a
> very accepting attitude towards them. It's too bad that some groups think
> they are better than others, whether they are in the US or Mexico, because
> that doesn't foster good relationships, and is non-productive.
>
> Emilie
> Port Orchard, WA
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Erlinda Castanon-Long
> To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
> Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 12:16 PM
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal Blood
>
>
> Like Alicia I related to Eric's commentary. I would personally love to
> find exactly what tribes we descend from in both my maternal and paternal
> line but that isn't possible with the loss of their names when they became
> Christians. My only option is to pursue the records that are available to
> me.. I take great pride in every ancestor that helped get me here and would
> love to learn their tribes if not their real names.
>
> I did find it interesting that in my paternal grandparents, Epitacio
> Castanon and Juana Sanchez both said they were Yndios and the records
> disprove some of that and the DNA for my grandfather said European. I guess
> this is one of the amazing things abt reclaiming our true family history and
> the genealogy we all work so hard to keep correct by working together and
> sharing records in Nuestrosranchos. This group helps fill the holes and tell
> a story of the times and lives of those whos names we have recalled. We do
> good work!
>
> Linda in Boulder City
Well, Rick, I can understand why you feel more Mexican, being that you now live in Mexico, and I don't know if your parents were born in America or Mexico, but my experience is different. Maybe you were raised closer to the culture, but I experienced "culture shock" in Mexico, not knowing proper Castellan, etc.
My mother, born in 1902, was a Piro-Manso-Tewa Indian whose ancestors were from New Mexico, the Lower El Paso Valley, and Juarez since the late 1600s. Her father was born in America, too, in 1878. They did have Spanish ancestors too, and those came up North with Onate in 1598. Maybe some were hidalgos, but all I have learned is that most of the men were officers stationed in presidios from Santa Fe to Parral. Their culture and language is different than that in Mexico, though it was all Mexico once, but it was an outpost for centuries and the people there became a breed all their own, with their own food, customs, language.
I related more to my mother's relations since during WWII we lived for years with them in New Mexico while my father, born in Zacatecas, was working on building ships in Oakland, California. My father criticized my mother's Spanish so much, and she didn't like his relatives, so I didn't grow up speaking Spanish or listening to Mexican music, etc. My father's heart was in Jerez which they left in 1913 during the Revolution. I had not only a cultural gap with him, but a generational one. He was old enough to be my grandfather. He was too strict, didn't feel girls should go to school, talk, date, etc.
My husband, born in Texas in 1935, comes from Altenos from Encarnacion de Diaz, Jalisco, and his pedigree includes all the surnames prominent there, and not one ancestor was anything other than espanol. I know that his mother's family had to have been conversos, but they would have been livid to hear about that, they were so "catolicos". However, his father was born in America in 1909.
My husband and I went to see his maternal aunt in Mexico City in 1968 where she was a profesora. She looked very espanola, with her green eyes, etc. She asked my husband to go with her to search for some of her male students in the university; their parents had pleaded to her to help find their sons since the police, etc. weren't forthcoming. There had been riots then and many students were killed or "disappeared" never to be heard from again. My husband was so disgusted, he has never wanted to return. Also his aunt was not very welcoming to me; she stated that no one in her family had ever married an Indian before. (yo sali pura india). My husband does not feel "Alteno" though I have traced his ancestry clear back to the late 1600s in Aguascalientes. He is a former Marine, a Korean War vet; his father was a Marine too, who fought for the Stars and Stripes during WWII, so his heart is here in America.
It would be nice to go and visit or even move to the places where your ancestors were from, but haven't you ever wanted to go to Spain where they originated, being that you know exactly where in Spain they originated (in Leon or Castilla)? Why does Mexico claim your heart and spirit more than Spain? Perhaps your parents influenced you.
You know the country that I feel that way about? New Mexico. I guess that part of the world calls to my spirit the way Jalisco calls to yours; I love the food from there, the customs so integrated with the Pueblo Indian culture. For Christmas I put up my "New Mexico" tree with ornaments I have gathered made in the Pueblos that reflect that culture. My cousin is a war captain for our tribe of Piro-Manso-Tewa. He has photos of our ancestors dressed in native wear, and tried to explain some of the customs to me, the fetishes, the tribal drum. Our grandfathers attended schools for Indians in Oklahoma because the whites didn't want them in their schools in NM.
You say you got into genealogy to find out how Mexican you were? How Aztec you were? I just went into it to find out my ancestors' names, where and how they had lived, etc. I once was fascinated by the Aztec culture, I visited all those pyramids, etc. But my father said we might not be Aztec on his side, and that anyway the Aztecs were a cruel, savage culture that subjugated other tribes, and that I should be as fascinated with his Spanish or French blood. (Actually, his ancestors, the Olague, came from Navarre, and they were Basques). He just thought of "Mexican" as a race, though he told me we were "mestizo", mixed race.
What a pity I can't visit Mexico (my husband abhors it, or rather he abhors the cruel and corrupt government). I've been to Jerez, and I would like to see where you live, since that is where my husband's ancestors are from. Why don't you post some photos of where you live and work?
Emilie
Port Orchard, WA
.
----- Original Message -----
From: Rick Rodriguez
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 1:59 PM
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Being a Mexican
To me, being a Mexican goes beyond the facts of where I was born, where I
was raised, who my ancestors were or where they were from. It has more to do
with how I was raised, the culture, the traditions and the spiritual
connection with the place I feel I belong to.
The main reason I got into genealogy was to find out how much Mexican I was.
I wanted to know where my Mexican ancestors were from, what their names
were, what they did when they were alive, etc., but what I most wanted to
find out was how much native Mexican blood I had in me, if I had Aztec
ancestors (which later I was sadden to find out that I had almost close to
none, or even none), because to me it is important to know and understand
where I come from, how I am built.
Although I was born in the US, I don't feel that I'm American, I feel that
I'm Mexican. Even after I discovered I had way more Spanish blood than any
other (between 7/8 and 15/16), I don't feel I'm Spanish at all, I still feel
that I'm Mexican. Even after my first five years of research, when I
recently discovered that my Rodriguez de Frias lineage might come from the
Frias de Albornoz lineage (direct descendents of the Senores de Albornoz,
these being direct descendents of the Reyes de Leon and Reyes de Castilla),
I still don't feel that I am Spanish, because I'm not, I'm Mexican.
So being a Mexican, in my opinion, comes from asking yourself where your
heart belongs to, where you feel the land calls to your spirit and claims
its ownership. I found my true calling here in Los Altos de Jalisco, because
I'm an Alteno, I'm Mexican.
Ricardo Rodriguez Camarena
Valle de Guadalupe, Jalisco
Wow I love your comment Emilie!!!
Its funny, in Mexico its common to hear "oh soy espanol" or "soy frances" etc...but the European Mexicans
hardly ever say there mejicano. Once they come to the US then they start saying "soy mejicano". Its the same
deal in the US, we say oh were Spanish, French or Italian etc....I do identify as Spanish in the US because
my my moms side is more recently Spanish immigrants to Mexico late 1800s. My dad is mostly Portuguese-Mexican.
I think in the US we tend to americanize and the ones that can assimilate, which was common to hear my mom
say shes white and shes born in Mexico. I think people in the US tend to seperate us Spanish speakers into our
own race; where inreality hispanos can be white, black or asian, its not a race. Then it annoys me when they dont
believe I speak Spanish!
I dont think the Aztecas are Mexican in my opinion they would be native american. I think mejicano means a descendant
of the colonist who created Mexico and all those who later immigrated and assimilated into Mexican society. I dont think
Mexican is a race, all throughout Mexico youll see different cultues, from European to native american; its a spectrum!
I hope to go to Mexico next summer, I always have a good time when I go!
Do you think you could send my your husbands's pedigree it would be cool
to see how were related. I have ancestors all over Los Altos and surrounding
alteno provinces.
-Daniel
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Daniel,
I don't have my husband's trees in a format to send you yet. I only have all his lines in hand-written pedigree charts because I am still in the process of trying to break down some brick walls. As soon as I get it all into my PAF program, I will send you a descendancy report.
Emilie
----- Original Message -----
From: Daniel Mendez de Camino y Soto
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 6:00 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Being a Mexican
Wow I love your comment Emilie!!!
Its funny, in Mexico its common to hear "oh soy espanol" or "soy frances" etc...but the European Mexicans
hardly ever say there mejicano. Once they come to the US then they start saying "soy mejicano". Its the same
deal in the US, we say oh were Spanish, French or Italian etc....I do identify as Spanish in the US because
my my moms side is more recently Spanish immigrants to Mexico late 1800s. My dad is mostly Portuguese-Mexican.
I think in the US we tend to americanize and the ones that can assimilate, which was common to hear my mom
say shes white and shes born in Mexico. I think people in the US tend to seperate us Spanish speakers into our
own race; where inreality hispanos can be white, black or asian, its not a race. Then it annoys me when they dont
believe I speak Spanish!
I dont think the Aztecas are Mexican in my opinion they would be native american. I think mejicano means a descendant
of the colonist who created Mexico and all those who later immigrated and assimilated into Mexican society. I dont think
Mexican is a race, all throughout Mexico youll see different cultues, from European to native american; its a spectrum!
I hope to go to Mexico next summer, I always have a good time when I go!
Do you think you could send my your husbands's pedigree it would be cool
to see how were related. I have ancestors all over Los Altos and surrounding
alteno provinces.
-Daniel
_________________________________________________________________
Windows 7: Unclutter your desktop. Learn more.
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windows-7/videos-tours.aspx?h=7sec&sli…
Thanks Emilie!!!
Id be glad to help if you need any, Ill have some extra time soon!
-Daniel
Send me your brick walls, I have a huge alteno database! and its still growing.
>From 1500s-1890s.
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Don't get me wrong Emilie, I'm not saying you're not Mexican or that I'm
more Mexican than you or others, I was just sharing the fact that I'm very
proud to be a Mexican, I apologize if any part of my comment made you feel
uncomfortable.
Some sociologists have come to the conclusion that most Mexicans living in
Mexico lack of an own identity and that this crisis is the cause of many of
our social issues when we compare ourselves to other countries, but that's a
different issue that would take forever to cover. I want to think that I
don't have this problem.
I was born in Los Angeles and I was raised by my parents (both born in
Mexico). I spoke Spanish at home and English everywhere else, this helped me
to learn both languages much easier. We came to live to Mexico when I was
10, and I went back y myself to the US when I was 20. I've lived close to 20
years in Los Angeles and less than that here in Mexico, but I feel my place
is here in Los Altos, it's hard to explain. I just responded to the voice in
my heart that told me that I had to be down here.
So, I guess I didn't choose to be a Mexican, I would say that Mexico chose
me to be its son.
Sure, I would love to travel someday to Talavera, Cuenca, Albornoz, Leon,
Castilla and the rest of Spain someday, when I have the resources to do so,
visit and pay my respects to my ancestor's burial sites. I would also have
to visit France, Italy, England, Germany, Denmark, Egypt, Africa, and all
the places my paternal ancestors were from, so I guess I'll just stick to
Los Altos for now, but it still doesn't mean I'm not a proud Alteno and
Mexican, I love my country, not necessarily the people running it. I want to
know more about my country's history as well, so if I were to go on a voyage
around the world, I would have to start by traveling my country first...
don't you agree? I have so much respect and awe for native American history
and their cultures, it's too bad I don't have that much native blood in me.
The tribes that lived here in Los Altos before the conquest were from
Chichimeca origins, which I know so little about.
I'm currently doing research here in Los Altos, and I develop websites
during my breaks. You can see pictures of some towns and people from Los
Altos de Jalisco in the following websites:
www.Valledeguadalupe.com (Valle de Guadalupe, where I live)
www.Hechoenlachona.com (Encarnacion de Diaz)
www.miJalisco.com
Well, gotta get back to work.
Best regards,
Rick
My parents are mexican they identify with a hypehn term
Portuguese Mexican and Spanish Mexican. Just like inthe US
its common to see the hyphenated American term
(ie. Mexican American) it is also seen in Mexico.
-Daniel
_________________________________________________________________
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I'm not so sure about this. In Mexico, hyphen terms are probably used to recent immigrants to Mexico, I assume, but I cannot confirm that. Based on my experience, what you say is not true. I used to live near the California border with Mexicali (lots of Chinese immigrants) and knew some second and third generation "Chinese-Mexicans", as you would call them, but they always refered to themselves as Mexicanos, period. Of course, they were proud of their heritage, but they were Mexicanos. Same thing here in North Carolina. I live in Winston Salem, and there his a big population of Mexican immigrants, primarily from the states of Veracruz and Guerrero. Many of these guys are from Acapulco and the Costa Chica (Cuajinicuilapa and San Nicolas). Many of them could easily pass as African Americans, and guess what, they don't call themselves "Afro-Mexicans", but Mexicanos, just like I do.
Personally, I love Mexico, its culture, traditions, language, food, people, etc. I am a Mexicano because I lived there until age 15. One thing for sure, the Mexican government is disgusting. I love the country itself, but not the way it is run, and that is how I'm planning on raising my daughter. She's an American. She'll love the United States and the way it is run. I know, the US government is flawed, but I wish Mexican politicians were just a little bit like in the US. Anyways, I'll teach her to love her Mexican culture and traditions. I'll make sure she learns good English and good Spanish as well. What I'm trying to say is that I love all about Mexico, except the way it's run, but I also appreciate the opportunities the United States gave my family.
Unfortunately, Mexico's way of living is declining rapidly, thanks to poverty, corrupt politicians, and drug dealers. Sometimes I think Santa Ana made a big mistake when he gave the Mexican territory north of the Rio Grande to the US. Instead, he should've given all the territory north of the Suchiate River.
--- On Thu, 12/3/09, Daniel Mendez de Camino y Soto wrote:
From: Daniel Mendez de Camino y Soto
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Being a Mexican
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Date: Thursday, December 3, 2009, 9:05 PM
My parents are mexican they identify with a hypehn term
Portuguese Mexican and Spanish Mexican. Just like inthe US
its common to see the hyphenated American term
(ie. Mexican American) it is also seen in Mexico.
-Daniel
_________________________________________________________________
Get gifts for them and cashback for you. Try Bing now.
http://www.bing.com/shopping/search?q=xbox+games&scope=cashback&form=MS…
America is a continent not a country, so we all in the american continent are amaricans.
Ruben Casillas M.
--- El vie 4-dic-09, Steve Apodaca escribió:
De:: Steve Apodaca
Asunto: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Being a Mexican
A: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Fecha: viernes 4 de diciembre de 2009, 9:34
I'm not so sure about this. In Mexico, hyphen terms are probably used to recent immigrants to Mexico, I assume, but I cannot confirm that. Based on my experience, what you say is not true. I used to live near the California border with Mexicali (lots of Chinese immigrants) and knew some second and third generation "Chinese-Mexicans", as you would call them, but they always refered to themselves as Mexicanos, period. Of course, they were proud of their heritage, but they were Mexicanos. Same thing here in North Carolina. I live in Winston Salem, and there his a big population of Mexican immigrants, primarily from the states of Veracruz and Guerrero. Many of these guys are from Acapulco and the Costa Chica (Cuajinicuilapa and San Nicolas). Many of them could easily pass as African Americans, and guess what, they don't call themselves "Afro-Mexicans", but Mexicanos, just like I do.
Personally, I love Mexico, its culture, traditions, language, food, people, etc. I am a Mexicano because I lived there until age 15. One thing for sure, the Mexican government is disgusting. I love the country itself, but not the way it is run, and that is how I'm planning on raising my daughter. She's an American. She'll love the United States and the way it is run. I know, the US government is flawed, but I wish Mexican politicians were just a little bit like in the US. Anyways, I'll teach her to love her Mexican culture and traditions. I'll make sure she learns good English and good Spanish as well. What I'm trying to say is that I love all about Mexico, except the way it's run, but I also appreciate the opportunities the United States gave my family.
Unfortunately, Mexico's way of living is declining rapidly, thanks to poverty, corrupt politicians, and drug dealers. Sometimes I think Santa Ana made a big mistake when he gave the Mexican territory north of the Rio Grande to the US. Instead, he should've given all the territory north of the Suchiate River.
--- On Thu, 12/3/09, Daniel Mendez de Camino y Soto wrote:
From: Daniel Mendez de Camino y Soto
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Being a Mexican
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Date: Thursday, December 3, 2009, 9:05 PM
My parents are mexican they identify with a hypehn term
Portuguese Mexican and Spanish Mexican. Just like inthe US
its common to see the hyphenated American term
(ie. Mexican American) it is also seen in Mexico.
-Daniel
_________________________________________________________________
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Thank you Ruben ..... that has always bothered me. To often "America" and
"The United States" are used interchangeably and we forget that America is a
continent that is home to many different countries not just the US.
-Angelina-
--------------------------------------------------
From: "ruben casillas moreno"
Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009 7:52 AM
To:
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Being a Mexican
> America is a continent not a country, so we all in the american continent
> are amaricans.
>
> Ruben Casillas M.
>
I'm sorry if my post offended some of you. I meant to say that my daughter was born in the United States. I know that American refers to people of the whole continent, but I guess I got used to saying that term since everybody in here refers to US citizens as Americans.
In spanish it happens something similar. When I watch TV from Mexico I hear people referring to US citizens as "Norteamericanos". That term should cover all of North America, not just the United States, and still, lots of people all over the world made American, or Norteamericano a term to refer to US citizens.
That reminds me of a story my dad told me. My parents were born in Mexico. One time, they were on vacation in Italy. The tour included travelers from all over Latin America and Spain. A guy from Spain asked my dad where was he from and he said in Spanish "yo soy norteamericano".
The guy stares at my dad and says "From the United States?"
"No, from Mexico" my dad answered.
"Oh, then you are Mexicano"
"Yes, but I'm also a Norteamericano"
"No you are not"
"Is Mexico in Central America?" said my dad
"No"
"Is it in South America?"
"No"
"That's right. Mexico is in North America" my dad finally said. "So I guess that makes me a Norteamericano" and then laughed.
Anyways, once again, I apologize if I offended anybody with my post. That was not my intention.
--- On Fri, 12/4/09, ruben casillas moreno wrote:
From: ruben casillas moreno
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Being a Mexican
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Date: Friday, December 4, 2009, 10:52 AM
America is a continent not a country, so we all in the american continent are amaricans.
Ruben Casillas M.
--- El vie 4-dic-09, Steve Apodaca escribió:
De:: Steve Apodaca
Asunto: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Being a Mexican
A: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Fecha: viernes 4 de diciembre de 2009, 9:34
I'm not so sure about this. In Mexico, hyphen terms are probably used to recent immigrants to Mexico, I assume, but I cannot confirm that. Based on my experience, what you say is not true. I used to live near the California border with Mexicali (lots of Chinese immigrants) and knew some second and third generation "Chinese-Mexicans", as you would call them, but they always refered to themselves as Mexicanos, period. Of course, they were proud of their heritage, but they were Mexicanos. Same thing here in North Carolina. I live in Winston Salem, and there his a big population of Mexican immigrants, primarily from the states of Veracruz and Guerrero. Many of these guys are from Acapulco and the Costa Chica (Cuajinicuilapa and San Nicolas). Many of them could easily pass as African Americans, and guess what, they don't call themselves "Afro-Mexicans", but Mexicanos, just like I do.
Personally, I love Mexico, its culture, traditions, language, food, people, etc. I am a Mexicano because I lived there until age 15. One thing for sure, the Mexican government is disgusting. I love the country itself, but not the way it is run, and that is how I'm planning on raising my daughter. She's an American. She'll love the United States and the way it is run. I know, the US government is flawed, but I wish Mexican politicians were just a little bit like in the US. Anyways, I'll teach her to love her Mexican culture and traditions. I'll make sure she learns good English and good Spanish as well. What I'm trying to say is that I love all about Mexico, except the way it's run, but I also appreciate the opportunities the United States gave my family.
Unfortunately, Mexico's way of living is declining rapidly, thanks to poverty, corrupt politicians, and drug dealers. Sometimes I think Santa Ana made a big mistake when he gave the Mexican territory north of the Rio Grande to the US. Instead, he should've given all the territory north of the Suchiate River.
--- On Thu, 12/3/09, Daniel Mendez de Camino y Soto wrote:
From: Daniel Mendez de Camino y Soto
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Being a Mexican
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Date: Thursday, December 3, 2009, 9:05 PM
My parents are mexican they identify with a hypehn term
Portuguese Mexican and Spanish Mexican. Just like inthe US
its common to see the hyphenated American term
(ie. Mexican American) it is also seen in Mexico.
-Daniel
_________________________________________________________________
Get gifts for them and cashback for you. Try Bing now.
http://www.bing.com/shopping/search?q=xbox+games&scope=cashback&form=MS…
Hi Steve:
I agree with you 100%. It boggles my mind when I hear people, that should
know better, referring to this country as "America".
A day doesn't go by when I don't hear government officials, including all
the way up to the president, media people, even in the Spanish language
channels, making comments like: He came from ( you pick any country south of
the border) to "America".
It is sad, sad, sad...Perhaps this country should have been named with a
short, quick easy, to pronounce name. "United States of America" takes too
long to pronounce and write.
And by the way, I wonder how many people know that the official name of
Mexico ( with an "X", not a "J" ) is: "Estados Unidos Mexicanos" If you
don't believe me, look at any offical document or currency.
My dos centavos worth
John Gonzalez.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Apodaca"
To:
Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009 20:59
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Being a Mexican
I'm sorry if my post offended some of you. I meant to say that my daughter
was born in the United States. I know that American refers to people of the
whole continent, but I guess I got used to saying that term since everybody
in here refers to US citizens as Americans.
In spanish it happens something similar. When I watch TV from Mexico I hear
people referring to US citizens as "Norteamericanos". That term should cover
all of North America, not just the United States, and still, lots of people
all over the world made American, or Norteamericano a term to refer to US
citizens.
That reminds me of a story my dad told me. My parents were born in Mexico.
One time, they were on vacation in Italy. The tour included travelers from
all over Latin America and Spain. A guy from Spain asked my dad where was he
from and he said in Spanish "yo soy norteamericano".
The guy stares at my dad and says "From the United States?"
"No, from Mexico" my dad answered.
"Oh, then you are Mexicano"
"Yes, but I'm also a Norteamericano"
"No you are not"
"Is Mexico in Central America?" said my dad
"No"
"Is it in South America?"
"No"
"That's right. Mexico is in North America" my dad finally said. "So I guess
that makes me a Norteamericano" and then laughed.
Anyways, once again, I apologize if I offended anybody with my post. That
was not my intention.
--- On Fri, 12/4/09, ruben casillas moreno
wrote:
From: ruben casillas moreno
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Being a Mexican
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Date: Friday, December 4, 2009, 10:52 AM
America is a continent not a country, so we all in the american continent
are amaricans.
Ruben Casillas M.
--- El vie 4-dic-09, Steve Apodaca escribió:
De:: Steve Apodaca
Asunto: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Being a Mexican
A: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Fecha: viernes 4 de diciembre de 2009, 9:34
I'm not so sure about this. In Mexico, hyphen terms are probably used to
recent immigrants to Mexico, I assume, but I cannot confirm that. Based on
my experience, what you say is not true. I used to live near the California
border with Mexicali (lots of Chinese immigrants) and knew some second and
third generation "Chinese-Mexicans", as you would call them, but they always
refered to themselves as Mexicanos, period. Of course, they were proud of
their heritage, but they were Mexicanos. Same thing here in North Carolina.
I live in Winston Salem, and there his a big population of Mexican
immigrants, primarily from the states of Veracruz and Guerrero. Many of
these guys are from Acapulco and the Costa Chica (Cuajinicuilapa and San
Nicolas). Many of them could easily pass as African Americans, and guess
what, they don't call themselves "Afro-Mexicans", but Mexicanos, just like I
do.
Personally, I love Mexico, its culture, traditions, language, food, people,
etc. I am a Mexicano because I lived there until age 15. One thing for sure,
the Mexican government is disgusting. I love the country itself, but not the
way it is run, and that is how I'm planning on raising my daughter. She's an
American. She'll love the United States and the way it is run. I know, the
US government is flawed, but I wish Mexican politicians were just a little
bit like in the US. Anyways, I'll teach her to love her Mexican culture and
traditions. I'll make sure she learns good English and good Spanish as well.
What I'm trying to say is that I love all about Mexico, except the way it's
run, but I also appreciate the opportunities the United States gave my
family.
Unfortunately, Mexico's way of living is declining rapidly, thanks to
poverty, corrupt politicians, and drug dealers. Sometimes I think Santa Ana
made a big mistake when he gave the Mexican territory north of the Rio
Grande to the US. Instead, he should've given all the territory north of the
Suchiate River.
--- On Thu, 12/3/09, Daniel Mendez de Camino y Soto
wrote:
From: Daniel Mendez de Camino y Soto
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Being a Mexican
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Date: Thursday, December 3, 2009, 9:05 PM
My parents are mexican they identify with a hypehn term
Portuguese Mexican and Spanish Mexican. Just like inthe US
its common to see the hyphenated American term
(ie. Mexican American) it is also seen in Mexico.
-Daniel
_________________________________________________________________
Get gifts for them and cashback for you. Try Bing now.
http://www.bing.com/shopping/search?q=xbox+games&scope=cashback&form=MS…
Jaime Rendon Hernandez
Linda,
According to Gary Felix of the Genealogy of Mexico Hispanic Surname Project Mexico, results from Y DNA Testing are beginning to show common genetic markers of Indigenous peoples who claim they are of the same tribe, but say that they are not related. In other words different Native tribes in Mexico are beginning to distinguish themselves from other tribes by their distinctive Y (male chromosome) genetic markers. Once more Y data is collected there may be a time when we will be able to know from exactly what tribe we descend in Mexico. So do not despair Linda!!
I am not sure, but I think the MTDNA X (female chromosome) is also showing a genetic pattern! DNA testing is good for people who have no paper trail of their ancestry!
Well then, my heart belongs in the US and in Ireland! :) Marge:)
"So being a Mexican, in my opinion, comes from asking yourself where
your
heart belongs to, where you feel the land calls to your spirit and
claims
its ownership. I found my true calling here in Los Altos de Jalisco,
because
I'm an Alteno, I'm Mexican.
Ricardo Rodriguez Camarena
Valle de Guadalupe, Jalisco"
-----Mensaje original-----
De: general-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
[mailto:general-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org] En nombre de Emilie
Garcia
Enviado el: Thursday, December 03, 2009 3:08 PM
Para: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Asunto: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal Blood
Linda, I feel sad that we won't ever know what tribe we are from, and
I am
not talking just about the Indios, since as you know, my espanol Olague
grandfather married into the Tinajero family of espanoles who
intermarried
with the Surianos whose ancestry is riddled with "mulatos", and hardly
any
indians. What tribes in Africa were they from?
I heard that perhaps many Indians in the states of our area of research
(Jalisco, Aguas, Zacatecas) were Tlaxcalans brought from the areas
farther
south settled earlier? Does anyone know more about this?
Mexico is mostly a land of meztizos, no? I have heard some Mexicans say
"soy puro mexicano", but there is no pure mexican race--aren't most of
mixed
race, whether mulato, or Indian? And if you look hard enough, don't
most
families who claim pure Spanish ancestry really have a Jew or Indian, or
African in their woodpile somewhere? I do recognize that "soy puro
mexicano" is a statement of national pride. I can't seem to get that
across
to some Mexicans that I don't feel "mexican", and my "patria" is
America,
meaning the US, where I was born and raised.
I have talked to several recent immigrants doing yard work around here
that
everyone thinks are "mexican", but I find they are Mayans from
Guatemala or
Porepeches from Southern Mexico who are still close to their tribal
roots
and even still speak their own languages rather than Spanish at home.
If
they learn English, it is their third language. Even the Mayans don't
understand each other; some speak Ka'anjobal and others speak Quiche.
Most
gringos don't know or care about the differences. Every Latino, whether
from Central or South America is a "mexican" to them, and they don't
have a
very accepting attitude towards them. It's too bad that some groups
think
they are better than others, whether they are in the US or Mexico,
because
that doesn't foster good relationships, and is non-productive.
Emilie
Port Orchard, WA
----- Original Message -----
From: Erlinda Castanon-Long
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 12:16 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal Blood
Like Alicia I related to Eric's commentary. I would personally love to
find exactly what tribes we descend from in both my maternal and
paternal
line but that isn't possible with the loss of their names when they
became
Christians. My only option is to pursue the records that are available
to
me.. I take great pride in every ancestor that helped get me here and
would
love to learn their tribes if not their real names.
I did find it interesting that in my paternal grandparents, Epitacio
Castanon and Juana Sanchez both said they were Yndios and the records
disprove some of that and the DNA for my grandfather said European. I
guess
this is one of the amazing things abt reclaiming our true family
history and
the genealogy we all work so hard to keep correct by working together
and
sharing records in Nuestrosranchos. This group helps fill the holes
and tell
a story of the times and lives of those whos names we have recalled.
We do
good work!
Linda in Boulder City
I once told an Anglo friend that her Anglo ancestors who lived in Texas pre-1840s were in fact "Mexican" (by nationality); she was blown away becuase she had never thought in those terms...labels dont mean much if anything but society has attributed certain positive and negative aspects with such labels...
> From: teacozygran@kc.rr.com
> To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
> Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2009 22:34:40 -0600
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Being a Mexican
>
> Well then, my heart belongs in the US and in Ireland! :) Marge:)
>
> "So being a Mexican, in my opinion, comes from asking yourself where
> your
> heart belongs to, where you feel the land calls to your spirit and
> claims
> its ownership. I found my true calling here in Los Altos de Jalisco,
> because
> I'm an Alteno, I'm Mexican.
>
> Ricardo Rodriguez Camarena
> Valle de Guadalupe, Jalisco"
>
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
Chat with Messenger straight from your Hotmail inbox.
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/hotmail_bl1/hotmail_bl1.as…
There is a form of this "royal blood" syndrome for native people in Mexico.
My grandmothers oldest sister was from her mother's first marriage. Her
contention was that her family decsended from La Malinche, also known as
Dona Marina, the translator, advisor and mistress of Cortes.
Eric Robledo Edgar
On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 8:39 PM, tony cobos wrote:
>
> I once told an Anglo friend that her Anglo ancestors who lived in Texas
> pre-1840s were in fact "Mexican" (by nationality); she was blown away
> becuase she had never thought in those terms...labels dont mean much if
> anything but society has attributed certain positive and negative aspects
> with such labels...
>
> > From: teacozygran@kc.rr.com
> > To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
> > Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2009 22:34:40 -0600
> > Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Being a Mexican
> >
> > Well then, my heart belongs in the US and in Ireland! :) Marge:)
> >
> > "So being a Mexican, in my opinion, comes from asking yourself where
> > your
> > heart belongs to, where you feel the land calls to your spirit and
> > claims
> > its ownership. I found my true calling here in Los Altos de Jalisco,
> > because
> > I'm an Alteno, I'm Mexican.
> >
> > Ricardo Rodriguez Camarena
> > Valle de Guadalupe, Jalisco"
> >
> >
> >
> _________________________________________________________________
> Chat with Messenger straight from your Hotmail inbox.
>
> http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/hotmail_bl1/hotmail_bl1.as…
One good source to find out which Indians from the south (Tlaxcalans,
Purepecha, Mexica, etc.) settled where in Jalisco and Zacatecas is
Peter Gerhard's "North Frontier of New Spain." Gerhard discussed each
province separately and what went on within that jurisdiction,
including settlements of Otomis, Tlaxcalans, Texcocans, Tarascans, etc.
I wrote several stories where I pointed out some of Gerhard's writings.
For example, Sain Alto in northwest Zacatecas was in the territory of
the Zacatecos but was also settled by Tlaxcalans, so people of
indigenous origins from there might be descended from both groups.
Here are the links to my stories:
http://www.houstonculture.org/mexico/states.html
http://www.houstonculture.org/mexico/zacatecas_indig.html
http://www.somosprimos.com/schmal/schmal.htm
Another example:
Near the city of Zacatecas, Mr. Gerhard writes, each Indian group
"lived in its own barrio," and these became pueblos segregated by
nationality and language. Eventually there were barrios for the Aztecs
(Mexicalpa), the Tlaxcalans (Tlacuitlapan), Tarascans (Tonaláa), and
Texcocans (El Niño).
(This is in reference to the 1500s, the early development of La Ciudad.)
John Schmal
-----Original Message-----
From: Emilie Garcia
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:07 pm
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal Blood
Linda, I feel sad that we won't ever know what tribe we are from, and I
am not talking just about the Indios, since as you know, my espanol
Olague grandfather married into the Tinajero family of espanoles who
intermarried with the Surianos whose ancestry is riddled with
"mulatos", and hardly any indians. What tribes in Africa were they
from?
I heard that perhaps many Indians in the states of our area of research
(Jalisco, Aguas, Zacatecas) were Tlaxcalans brought from the areas
farther south settled earlier? Does anyone know more about this?
Mexico is mostly a land of meztizos, no? I have heard some Mexicans
say "soy puro mexicano", but there is no pure mexican race--aren't most
of mixed race, whether mulato, or Indian? And if you look hard enough,
don't most families who claim pure Spanish ancestry really have a Jew
or Indian, or African in their woodpile somewhere? I do recognize that
"soy puro mexicano" is a statement of national pride. I can't seem to
get that across to some Mexicans that I don't feel "mexican", and my
"patria" is America, meaning the US, where I was born and raised.
I have talked to several recent immigrants doing yard work around here
that everyone thinks are "mexican", but I find they are Mayans from
Guatemala or Porepeches from Southern Mexico who are still close to
their tribal roots and even still speak their own languages rather than
Spanish at home. If they learn English, it is their third language.
Even the Mayans don't understand each other; some speak Ka'anjobal and
others speak Quiche. Most gringos don't know or care about the
differences. Every Latino, whether from Central or South America is a
"mexican" to them, and they don't have a very accepting attitude
towards them. It's too bad that some groups think they are better than
others, whether they are in the US or Mexico, because that doesn't
foster good relationships, and is non-productive.
Emilie
Port Orchard, WA
----- Original Message -----
From: Erlinda Castanon-Long
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 12:16 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal Blood
Like Alicia I related to Eric's commentary. I would personally love
to find exactly what tribes we descend from in both my maternal and
paternal line but that isn't possible with the loss of their names when
they became Christians. My only option is to pursue the records that
are available to me.. I take great pride in every ancestor that helped
get me here and would love to learn their tribes if not their real
names.
I did find it interesting that in my paternal grandparents, Epitacio
Castanon and Juana Sanchez both said they were Yndios and the records
disprove some of that and the DNA for my grandfather said European. I
guess this is one of the amazing things abt reclaiming our true family
history and the genealogy we all work so hard to keep correct by
working together and sharing records in Nuestrosranchos. This group
helps fill the holes and tell a story of the times and lives of those
whos names we have recalled. We do good work!
Linda in Boulder City
Hello Johnny -
Do you know where the HUICHOL indians from Garcia De La Cadena, Zacatecas originate from?
Thank you,
Rudy
--- On Thu, 12/3/09, johnnypj@aol.com wrote:
From: johnnypj@aol.com
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Provenance of Indigenous Peoples in Select Cities of Nueva Galicia (circa 1550-1650)
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Date: Thursday, December 3, 2009, 2:19 PM
One good source to find out which Indians from the south (Tlaxcalans, Purepecha, Mexica, etc.) settled where in Jalisco and Zacatecas is Peter Gerhard's "North Frontier of New Spain." Gerhard discussed each province separately and what went on within that jurisdiction, including settlements of Otomis, Tlaxcalans, Texcocans, Tarascans, etc.
I wrote several stories where I pointed out some of Gerhard's writings. For example, Sain Alto in northwest Zacatecas was in the territory of the Zacatecos but was also settled by Tlaxcalans, so people of indigenous origins from there might be descended from both groups.
Here are the links to my stories:
http://www.houstonculture.org/mexico/states.html
http://www.houstonculture.org/mexico/zacatecas_indig.html
http://www.somosprimos.com/schmal/schmal.htm
Another example:
Near the city of Zacatecas, Mr. Gerhard writes, each Indian group "lived in its own barrio," and these became pueblos segregated by nationality and language. Eventually there were barrios for the Aztecs (Mexicalpa), the Tlaxcalans (Tlacuitlapan), Tarascans (Tonaláa), and Texcocans (El Niño).
(This is in reference to the 1500s, the early development of La Ciudad.)
John Schmal
-----Original Message-----
From: Emilie Garcia
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:07 pm
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal Blood
Linda, I feel sad that we won't ever know what tribe we are from, and I am not talking just about the Indios, since as you know, my espanol Olague grandfather married into the Tinajero family of espanoles who intermarried with the Surianos whose ancestry is riddled with "mulatos", and hardly any indians. What tribes in Africa were they from?
I heard that perhaps many Indians in the states of our area of research (Jalisco, Aguas, Zacatecas) were Tlaxcalans brought from the areas farther south settled earlier? Does anyone know more about this?
Mexico is mostly a land of meztizos, no? I have heard some Mexicans say "soy puro mexicano", but there is no pure mexican race--aren't most of mixed race, whether mulato, or Indian? And if you look hard enough, don't most families who claim pure Spanish ancestry really have a Jew or Indian, or African in their woodpile somewhere? I do recognize that "soy puro mexicano" is a statement of national pride. I can't seem to get that across to some Mexicans that I don't feel "mexican", and my "patria" is America, meaning the US, where I was born and raised.
I have talked to several recent immigrants doing yard work around here that everyone thinks are "mexican", but I find they are Mayans from Guatemala or Porepeches from Southern Mexico who are still close to their tribal roots and even still speak their own languages rather than Spanish at home. If they learn English, it is their third language. Even the Mayans don't understand each other; some speak Ka'anjobal and others speak Quiche. Most gringos don't know or care about the differences. Every Latino, whether from Central or South America is a "mexican" to them, and they don't have a very accepting attitude towards them. It's too bad that some groups think they are better than others, whether they are in the US or Mexico, because that doesn't foster good relationships, and is non-productive.
Emilie
Port Orchard, WA
----- Original Message -----
From: Erlinda Castanon-Long
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 12:16 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal Blood
Like Alicia I related to Eric's commentary. I would personally love to find exactly what tribes we descend from in both my maternal and paternal line but that isn't possible with the loss of their names when they became Christians. My only option is to pursue the records that are available to me.. I take great pride in every ancestor that helped get me here and would love to learn their tribes if not their real names.
I did find it interesting that in my paternal grandparents, Epitacio Castanon and Juana Sanchez both said they were Yndios and the records disprove some of that and the DNA for my grandfather said European. I guess this is one of the amazing things abt reclaiming our true family history and the genealogy we all work so hard to keep correct by working together and sharing records in Nuestrosranchos. This group helps fill the holes and tell a story of the times and lives of those whos names we have recalled. We do good work!
Linda in Boulder City
I can't tell you their place of origin, but they have been discussed by
a dozen or more publications... It was believed that they were distant
cousins to the Guachichiles and split off from them. That was discussed
in that one book "People of the Peyote." It's quite a fascinating
theory and may very well be true.
Have you heard of it?
John Schmal
-----Original Message-----
From: Rodolfo Flores
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thu, Dec 3, 2009 2:38 pm
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Provenance of Indigenous Peoples in
Select Cities of Nueva Galicia (circa 1550-1650)
Hello Johnny -
Do you know where the HUICHOL indians from Garcia De La Cadena,
Zacatecas originate from?
Thank you,
Rudy
--- On Thu, 12/3/09, johnnypj@aol.com wrote:
From: johnnypj@aol.com
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Provenance of Indigenous Peoples in Select
Cities of Nueva Galicia (circa 1550-1650)
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Date: Thursday, December 3, 2009, 2:19 PM
One good source to find out which Indians from the south (Tlaxcalans,
Purepecha, Mexica, etc.) settled where in Jalisco and Zacatecas is
Peter Gerhard's "North Frontier of New Spain." Gerhard discussed each
province separately and what went on within that jurisdiction,
including settlements of Otomis, Tlaxcalans, Texcocans, Tarascans, etc.
I wrote several stories where I pointed out some of Gerhard's writings.
For example, Sain Alto in northwest Zacatecas was in the territory of
the Zacatecos but was also settled by Tlaxcalans, so people of
indigenous origins from there might be descended from both groups.
Here are the links to my stories:
http://www.houstonculture.org/mexico/states.html
http://www.houstonculture.org/mexico/zacatecas_indig.html
http://www.somosprimos.com/schmal/schmal.htm
Another example:
Near the city of Zacatecas, Mr. Gerhard writes, each Indian group
"lived in its own barrio," and these became pueblos segregated by
nationality and language. Eventually there were barrios for the Aztecs
(Mexicalpa), the Tlaxcalans (Tlacuitlapan), Tarascans (Tonaláa), and
Texcocans (El Niño).
(This is in reference to the 1500s, the early development of La Ciudad.)
John Schmal
-----Original Message-----
From: Emilie Garcia
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:07 pm
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal Blood
Linda, I feel sad that we won't ever know what tribe we are from, and I
am not talking just about the Indios, since as you know, my espanol
Olague grandfather married into the Tinajero family of espanoles who
intermarried with the Surianos whose ancestry is riddled with
"mulatos", and hardly any indians. What tribes in Africa were they
from?
I heard that perhaps many Indians in the states of our area of research
(Jalisco, Aguas, Zacatecas) were Tlaxcalans brought from the areas
farther south settled earlier? Does anyone know more about this?
Mexico is mostly a land of meztizos, no? I have heard some Mexicans
say "soy puro mexicano", but there is no pure mexican race--aren't most
of mixed race, whether mulato, or Indian? And if you look hard enough,
don't most families who claim pure Spanish ancestry really have a Jew
or Indian, or African in their woodpile somewhere? I do recognize that
"soy puro mexicano" is a statement of national pride. I can't seem to
get that across to some Mexicans that I don't feel "mexican", and my
"patria" is America, meaning the US, where I was born and raised.
I have talked to several recent immigrants doing yard work around here
that everyone thinks are "mexican", but I find they are Mayans from
Guatemala or Porepeches from Southern Mexico who are still close to
their tribal roots and even still speak their own languages rather than
Spanish at home. If they learn English, it is their third language.
Even the Mayans don't understand each other; some speak Ka'anjobal and
others speak Quiche. Most gringos don't know or care about the
differences. Every Latino, whether from Central or South America is a
"mexican" to them, and they don't have a very accepting attitude
towards them. It's too bad that some groups think they are better than
others, whether they are in the US or Mexico, because that doesn't
foster good relationships, and is non-productive.
Emilie
Port Orchard, WA
----- Original Message -----
From: Erlinda Castanon-Long
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 12:16 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal Blood
Like Alicia I related to Eric's commentary. I would personally love
to find exactly what tribes we descend from in both my maternal and
paternal line but that isn't possible with the loss of their names when
they became Christians. My only option is to pursue the records that
are available to me.. I take great pride in every ancestor that helped
get me here and would love to learn their tribes if not their real
names.
I did find it interesting that in my paternal grandparents, Epitacio
Castanon and Juana Sanchez both said they were Yndios and the records
disprove some of that and the DNA for my grandfather said European. I
guess this is one of the amazing things abt reclaiming our true family
history and the genealogy we all work so hard to keep correct by
working together and sharing records in Nuestrosranchos. This group
helps fill the holes and tell a story of the times and lives of those
whos names we have recalled. We do good work!
Linda in Boulder City
Rudy, you will probably have no trouble getting a copy of that book (if
you don't already have it). This is something on the web, but I think
the book makes a pretty strong point, a theory of course:
Identification. The Huichol are a Mexican Indian group located in the
states of Jalisco, Nayarit, Zacatecas, and Durango. The name "Huichol"
is the term Spaniards used when referring to this group and is possibly
a corruption of the name for either the Guachichil or the Wizarika.
Some scholars believe the Huichol were originally the desert-dwelling
culture known as the "Guachichil," who, in turn were one of the many
people collectively called "Chichimec." "Wizarika" is the term the
Huichol use to identify themselves. Its meaning is unclear, but
scholars have proposed various interpretations: "the healers," "the
sandal wearers," and "the ones." The Huichol use the term "Tevi,"
meaning one of "the people" when making distinctions between Huichol
and non-Huichol individuals.
Location. The majority of the Huichol live in the Sierra Madre
Occidental in the states of Jalisco, Nayarit, Zacatecas, and Durango.
This area covers the span of 21°30′ to 22°35′ N and 104°00′ to 104°30′
W. The rugged sierra was formed in the Tertiary period with the lava
flows from active volcanoes. The Huichol occupy some of the most rugged
terrain in the mountain chain, characterized by high mesas, sheer
cliffs, and deep river valleys ranging in elevation from approximately
600 meters to over 1,800 meters. The geography of the sierra consists
of extremes, creating natural barriers that have served to insulate the
Huichol from the outside world. The tops of the mesa are covered with
oak and pine forest. In the lower elevations are subtropical scrub
vegetation and thorn forests, which include such genera as Acacia,
Ficus, Lysiloma, Ceiba, Bombax, Bursera, Opuntia, and Agave. The
herbaceous vegetation is predominantly grasses and geophytes.
Read more:
http://www.everyculture.com/Middle-America-Caribbean/Huichol-Orientatio…
-----Original Message-----
From: Rodolfo Flores
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thu, Dec 3, 2009 2:38 pm
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Provenance of Indigenous Peoples in
Select Cities of Nueva Galicia (circa 1550-1650)
Hello Johnny -
Do you know where the HUICHOL indians from Garcia De La Cadena,
Zacatecas originate from?
Thank you,
Rudy
--- On Thu, 12/3/09, johnnypj@aol.com wrote:
From: johnnypj@aol.com
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Provenance of Indigenous Peoples in Select
Cities of Nueva Galicia (circa 1550-1650)
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Date: Thursday, December 3, 2009, 2:19 PM
One good source to find out which Indians from the south (Tlaxcalans,
Purepecha, Mexica, etc.) settled where in Jalisco and Zacatecas is
Peter Gerhard's "North Frontier of New Spain." Gerhard discussed each
province separately and what went on within that jurisdiction,
including settlements of Otomis, Tlaxcalans, Texcocans, Tarascans, etc.
I wrote several stories where I pointed out some of Gerhard's writings.
For example, Sain Alto in northwest Zacatecas was in the territory of
the Zacatecos but was also settled by Tlaxcalans, so people of
indigenous origins from there might be descended from both groups.
Here are the links to my stories:
http://www.houstonculture.org/mexico/states.html
http://www.houstonculture.org/mexico/zacatecas_indig.html
http://www.somosprimos.com/schmal/schmal.htm
Another example:
Near the city of Zacatecas, Mr. Gerhard writes, each Indian group
"lived in its own barrio," and these became pueblos segregated by
nationality and language. Eventually there were barrios for the Aztecs
(Mexicalpa), the Tlaxcalans (Tlacuitlapan), Tarascans (Tonaláa), and
Texcocans (El Niño).
(This is in reference to the 1500s, the early development of La Ciudad.)
John Schmal
-----Original Message-----
From: Emilie Garcia
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:07 pm
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal Blood
Linda, I feel sad that we won't ever know what tribe we are from, and I
am not talking just about the Indios, since as you know, my espanol
Olague grandfather married into the Tinajero family of espanoles who
intermarried with the Surianos whose ancestry is riddled with
"mulatos", and hardly any indians. What tribes in Africa were they
from?
I heard that perhaps many Indians in the states of our area of research
(Jalisco, Aguas, Zacatecas) were Tlaxcalans brought from the areas
farther south settled earlier? Does anyone know more about this?
Mexico is mostly a land of meztizos, no? I have heard some Mexicans
say "soy puro mexicano", but there is no pure mexican race--aren't most
of mixed race, whether mulato, or Indian? And if you look hard enough,
don't most families who claim pure Spanish ancestry really have a Jew
or Indian, or African in their woodpile somewhere? I do recognize that
"soy puro mexicano" is a statement of national pride. I can't seem to
get that across to some Mexicans that I don't feel "mexican", and my
"patria" is America, meaning the US, where I was born and raised.
I have talked to several recent immigrants doing yard work around here
that everyone thinks are "mexican", but I find they are Mayans from
Guatemala or Porepeches from Southern Mexico who are still close to
their tribal roots and even still speak their own languages rather than
Spanish at home. If they learn English, it is their third language.
Even the Mayans don't understand each other; some speak Ka'anjobal and
others speak Quiche. Most gringos don't know or care about the
differences. Every Latino, whether from Central or South America is a
"mexican" to them, and they don't have a very accepting attitude
towards them. It's too bad that some groups think they are better than
others, whether they are in the US or Mexico, because that doesn't
foster good relationships, and is non-productive.
Emilie
Port Orchard, WA
----- Original Message -----
From: Erlinda Castanon-Long
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 12:16 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal Blood
Like Alicia I related to Eric's commentary. I would personally love
to find exactly what tribes we descend from in both my maternal and
paternal line but that isn't possible with the loss of their names when
they became Christians. My only option is to pursue the records that
are available to me.. I take great pride in every ancestor that helped
get me here and would love to learn their tribes if not their real
names.
I did find it interesting that in my paternal grandparents, Epitacio
Castanon and Juana Sanchez both said they were Yndios and the records
disprove some of that and the DNA for my grandfather said European. I
guess this is one of the amazing things abt reclaiming our true family
history and the genealogy we all work so hard to keep correct by
working together and sharing records in Nuestrosranchos. This group
helps fill the holes and tell a story of the times and lives of those
whos names we have recalled. We do good work!
Linda in Boulder City
Hello Johnny -
Thank you so much for the impressive information! Only question I have is what book are you reffering to?
Again, my thanks,
Rudy
--- On Thu, 12/3/09, johnnypj@aol.com wrote:
From: johnnypj@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Provenance of Indigenous Peoples in Select Cities of Nueva Galicia (circa 1550-1650)
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Date: Thursday, December 3, 2009, 2:49 PM
Rudy, you will probably have no trouble getting a copy of that book (if you don't already have it). This is something on the web, but I think the book makes a pretty strong point, a theory of course:
Identification. The Huichol are a Mexican Indian group located in the states of Jalisco, Nayarit, Zacatecas, and Durango. The name "Huichol" is the term Spaniards used when referring to this group and is possibly a corruption of the name for either the Guachichil or the Wizarika. Some scholars believe the Huichol were originally the desert-dwelling culture known as the "Guachichil," who, in turn were one of the many people collectively called "Chichimec." "Wizarika" is the term the Huichol use to identify themselves. Its meaning is unclear, but scholars have proposed various interpretations: "the healers," "the sandal wearers," and "the ones." The Huichol use the term "Tevi," meaning one of "the people" when making distinctions between Huichol and non-Huichol individuals.
Location. The majority of the Huichol live in the Sierra Madre Occidental in the states of Jalisco, Nayarit, Zacatecas, and Durango. This area covers the span of 21°30′ to 22°35′ N and 104°00′ to 104°30′ W. The rugged sierra was formed in the Tertiary period with the lava flows from active volcanoes. The Huichol occupy some of the most rugged terrain in the mountain chain, characterized by high mesas, sheer cliffs, and deep river valleys ranging in elevation from approximately 600 meters to over 1,800 meters. The geography of the sierra consists of extremes, creating natural barriers that have served to insulate the Huichol from the outside world. The tops of the mesa are covered with oak and pine forest. In the lower elevations are subtropical scrub vegetation and thorn forests, which include such genera as Acacia, Ficus, Lysiloma, Ceiba, Bombax, Bursera, Opuntia, and Agave. The herbaceous vegetation is predominantly grasses and geophytes.
Read more: http://www.everyculture.com/Middle-America-Caribbean/Huichol-Orientatio…
-----Original Message-----
From: Rodolfo Flores
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thu, Dec 3, 2009 2:38 pm
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Provenance of Indigenous Peoples in Select Cities of Nueva Galicia (circa 1550-1650)
Hello Johnny -
Do you know where the HUICHOL indians from Garcia De La Cadena, Zacatecas originate from?
Thank you,
Rudy
--- On Thu, 12/3/09, johnnypj@aol.com wrote:
From: johnnypj@aol.com
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Provenance of Indigenous Peoples in Select Cities of Nueva Galicia (circa 1550-1650)
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Date: Thursday, December 3, 2009, 2:19 PM
One good source to find out which Indians from the south (Tlaxcalans, Purepecha, Mexica, etc.) settled where in Jalisco and Zacatecas is Peter Gerhard's "North Frontier of New Spain." Gerhard discussed each province separately and what went on within that jurisdiction, including settlements of Otomis, Tlaxcalans, Texcocans, Tarascans, etc.
I wrote several stories where I pointed out some of Gerhard's writings. For example, Sain Alto in northwest Zacatecas was in the territory of the Zacatecos but was also settled by Tlaxcalans, so people of indigenous origins from there might be descended from both groups.
Here are the links to my stories:
http://www.houstonculture.org/mexico/states.html
http://www.houstonculture.org/mexico/zacatecas_indig.html
http://www.somosprimos.com/schmal/schmal.htm
Another example:
Near the city of Zacatecas, Mr. Gerhard writes, each Indian group "lived in its own barrio," and these became pueblos segregated by nationality and language. Eventually there were barrios for the Aztecs (Mexicalpa), the Tlaxcalans (Tlacuitlapan), Tarascans (Tonaláa), and Texcocans (El Niño).
(This is in reference to the 1500s, the early development of La Ciudad.)
John Schmal
-----Original Message-----
From: Emilie Garcia
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:07 pm
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal Blood
Linda, I feel sad that we won't ever know what tribe we are from, and I am not talking just about the Indios, since as you know, my espanol Olague grandfather married into the Tinajero family of espanoles who intermarried with the Surianos whose ancestry is riddled with "mulatos", and hardly any indians. What tribes in Africa were they from?
I heard that perhaps many Indians in the states of our area of research (Jalisco, Aguas, Zacatecas) were Tlaxcalans brought from the areas farther south settled earlier? Does anyone know more about this?
Mexico is mostly a land of meztizos, no? I have heard some Mexicans say "soy puro mexicano", but there is no pure mexican race--aren't most of mixed race, whether mulato, or Indian? And if you look hard enough, don't most families who claim pure Spanish ancestry really have a Jew or Indian, or African in their woodpile somewhere? I do recognize that "soy puro mexicano" is a statement of national pride. I can't seem to get that across to some Mexicans that I don't feel "mexican", and my "patria" is America, meaning the US, where I was born and raised.
I have talked to several recent immigrants doing yard work around here that everyone thinks are "mexican", but I find they are Mayans from Guatemala or Porepeches from Southern Mexico who are still close to their tribal roots and even still speak their own languages rather than Spanish at home. If they learn English, it is their third language. Even the Mayans don't understand each other; some speak Ka'anjobal and others speak Quiche. Most gringos don't know or care about the differences. Every Latino, whether from Central or South America is a "mexican" to them, and they don't have a very accepting attitude towards them. It's too bad that some groups think they are better than others, whether they are in the US or Mexico, because that doesn't foster good relationships, and is non-productive.
Emilie
Port Orchard, WA
----- Original Message -----
From: Erlinda Castanon-Long
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 12:16 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal Blood
Like Alicia I related to Eric's commentary. I would personally love to find exactly what tribes we descend from in both my maternal and paternal line but that isn't possible with the loss of their names when they became Christians. My only option is to pursue the records that are available to me.. I take great pride in every ancestor that helped get me here and would love to learn their tribes if not their real names.
I did find it interesting that in my paternal grandparents, Epitacio Castanon and Juana Sanchez both said they were Yndios and the records disprove some of that and the DNA for my grandfather said European. I guess this is one of the amazing things abt reclaiming our true family history and the genealogy we all work so hard to keep correct by working together and sharing records in Nuestrosranchos. This group helps fill the holes and tell a story of the times and lives of those whos names we have recalled. We do good work!
Linda in Boulder City
Thank you Mr. Schmal. I will enjoy reading your articles on this subject. I have read many of your articles and find them so informative.
Emilie
Port Orchard, WA
----- Original Message -----
From: johnnypj@aol.com
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 2:19 PM
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Provenance of Indigenous Peoples in Select Cities of Nueva Galicia (circa 1550-1650)
One good source to find out which Indians from the south (Tlaxcalans,
Purepecha, Mexica, etc.) settled where in Jalisco and Zacatecas is
Peter Gerhard's "North Frontier of New Spain." Gerhard discussed each
province separately and what went on within that jurisdiction,
including settlements of Otomis, Tlaxcalans, Texcocans, Tarascans, etc.
I wrote several stories where I pointed out some of Gerhard's writings.
For example, Sain Alto in northwest Zacatecas was in the territory of
the Zacatecos but was also settled by Tlaxcalans, so people of
indigenous origins from there might be descended from both groups.
Here are the links to my stories:
http://www.houstonculture.org/mexico/states.html
http://www.houstonculture.org/mexico/zacatecas_indig.html
http://www.somosprimos.com/schmal/schmal.htm
Another example:
Near the city of Zacatecas, Mr. Gerhard writes, each Indian group
"lived in its own barrio," and these became pueblos segregated by
nationality and language. Eventually there were barrios for the Aztecs
(Mexicalpa), the Tlaxcalans (Tlacuitlapan), Tarascans (Tonaláa), and
Texcocans (El Niño).
(This is in reference to the 1500s, the early development of La Ciudad.)
John Schmal
-----Original Message-----
From: Emilie Garcia >
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thu, Dec 3, 2009 1:07 pm
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal Blood
Linda, I feel sad that we won't ever know what tribe we are from, and I
am not talking just about the Indios, since as you know, my espanol
Olague grandfather married into the Tinajero family of espanoles who
intermarried with the Surianos whose ancestry is riddled with
"mulatos", and hardly any indians. What tribes in Africa were they
from?
I heard that perhaps many Indians in the states of our area of research
(Jalisco, Aguas, Zacatecas) were Tlaxcalans brought from the areas
farther south settled earlier? Does anyone know more about this?
Mexico is mostly a land of meztizos, no? I have heard some Mexicans
say "soy puro mexicano", but there is no pure mexican race--aren't most
of mixed race, whether mulato, or Indian? And if you look hard enough,
don't most families who claim pure Spanish ancestry really have a Jew
or Indian, or African in their woodpile somewhere? I do recognize that
"soy puro mexicano" is a statement of national pride. I can't seem to
get that across to some Mexicans that I don't feel "mexican", and my
"patria" is America, meaning the US, where I was born and raised.
I have talked to several recent immigrants doing yard work around here
that everyone thinks are "mexican", but I find they are Mayans from
Guatemala or Porepeches from Southern Mexico who are still close to
their tribal roots and even still speak their own languages rather than
Spanish at home. If they learn English, it is their third language.
Even the Mayans don't understand each other; some speak Ka'anjobal and
others speak Quiche. Most gringos don't know or care about the
differences. Every Latino, whether from Central or South America is a
"mexican" to them, and they don't have a very accepting attitude
towards them. It's too bad that some groups think they are better than
others, whether they are in the US or Mexico, because that doesn't
foster good relationships, and is non-productive.
Emilie
Port Orchard, WA
----- Original Message -----
From: Erlinda Castanon-Long>
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org>
Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 12:16 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal Blood
Like Alicia I related to Eric's commentary. I would personally love
to find exactly what tribes we descend from in both my maternal and
paternal line but that isn't possible with the loss of their names when
they became Christians. My only option is to pursue the records that
are available to me.. I take great pride in every ancestor that helped
get me here and would love to learn their tribes if not their real
names.
I did find it interesting that in my paternal grandparents, Epitacio
Castanon and Juana Sanchez both said they were Yndios and the records
disprove some of that and the DNA for my grandfather said European. I
guess this is one of the amazing things abt reclaiming our true family
history and the genealogy we all work so hard to keep correct by
working together and sharing records in Nuestrosranchos. This group
helps fill the holes and tell a story of the times and lives of those
whos names we have recalled. We do good work!
Linda in Boulder City
Emilie,
>From what I can recall studying African History in Latin America, it is
widely believed that most of the Africans brought into Central and South
America were initially from Yoruba, which was then a nation east of what is now
known as Benin, however it is difficult to tell, as tribal people were
often separated, as the slave holders didn't want them to be able to
communicate with each other in their native tongue. I seem to recall an isolated
community in Guerrero was discovered where linguists were able to trace their
language to Yoruba. Because of these practices, it is difficult for many
African Americans to trace their ancestry to a specific tribe in Africa. I
do know however that in the latter years, because of a loop hole in Spanish
law that outlawed slavery in 1829, most slaves who arrived into Latin
countries no longer came from the west coast, they came from Angola.
I am one of the few people that has indeed found proof that I have
Tlaxcaltecan roots. I found birth certificates indicating that the name Bermea
(known then as Bermeo) and Flores were brought into Nadadores, Coahuila to
pacify existing nomadic tribes, later moving to a small settlement where they
were among the first settlers. This was BIG...as I know such records are
virtually impossible to find. I have read that Tlaxcalans were initially
brought into Zacatecas to keep the continued insurgents of the natives
(Caxcan) down. However, I have also read that other indigenous people were
brought in various parts of Zacatecas to help with mining, including those from
Michoacan, and other slaves including "chinos" who were from the
Philippines. (Eric...you might find this interesting with your discovery of your DNA
Test and discovery)
_http://www.history.ucsb.edu/courses/tempdownload.php?attach_id=2900_
(http://www.history.ucsb.edu/courses/tempdownload.php?attach_id=2900) .
For me, history has been relayed by those in power, so it is natural that
the records uncovered would have been written and kept by the Spanish. It
is much more interesting to discover roots of those whose voices/hisotry
were oppressed. .
Esperanza
Chicagoland area
Thank you Esperanza. You know, you mentioned something very interesting; you said "I have also read that other indigenous people were brought in various parts of Zacatecas to help with mining, including those from
Michoacan, and other slaves including "chinos" who were from the Philippines".
You know, I am often mistaken for Filipino. I thought it was because of my Pueblo Indian blood that gives me my Asian eyes, since they say that American natives originated in Asia and came through Alaska. Now I am wondering, were some of my father's "indian" ancestors mixed with Filipinos brought to Zacatecas by the Spaniards? Is that where my looks came from and not from my mother's ancestors in New Mexico? I know that the Spaniards' ships brought booty from the Phillipines, but now you tell me they also brought slaves from there.
I am looking at a photo of my father when he was 17. I was born when he was almost 40, so he had changed a lot when I knew him, he got bald, had dentures, etc. but in the photo of him at 17 he does look Filipino! What a shame I had no brothers or male cousins close enough to get their DNA (my father died in 1966). My DNA won't tell me a thing about my father's ancestors.
I am also wondering about the Chinese in Zacatecas. My father was very prejudiced, and he told me he didn't want me to be friends with "Chinos" in college (they were from Taiwan), because he didn't like them. I asked why, and he said, "because in Jerez they wanted to marry our women". I didn't know they had Chinese in Jerez, or did they back when he lived there in 1903-1913? Or was it just a story told by his forbears who thought the Filipino slaves were Chinese (Chinos)?
Emilie
Port Orchard, WA
----- Original Message -----
From: latina1955@aol.com
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 2:56 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal Blood
Emilie,
>From what I can recall studying African History in Latin America, it is
widely believed that most of the Africans brought into Central and South
America were initially from Yoruba, which was then a nation east of what is now
known as Benin, however it is difficult to tell, as tribal people were
often separated, as the slave holders didn't want them to be able to
communicate with each other in their native tongue. I seem to recall an isolated
community in Guerrero was discovered where linguists were able to trace their
language to Yoruba. Because of these practices, it is difficult for many
African Americans to trace their ancestry to a specific tribe in Africa. I
do know however that in the latter years, because of a loop hole in Spanish
law that outlawed slavery in 1829, most slaves who arrived into Latin
countries no longer came from the west coast, they came from Angola.
I am one of the few people that has indeed found proof that I have
Tlaxcaltecan roots. I found birth certificates indicating that the name Bermea
(known then as Bermeo) and Flores were brought into Nadadores, Coahuila to
pacify existing nomadic tribes, later moving to a small settlement where they
were among the first settlers. This was BIG...as I know such records are
virtually impossible to find. I have read that Tlaxcalans were initially
brought into Zacatecas to keep the continued insurgents of the natives
(Caxcan) down. However, I have also read that other indigenous people were
brought in various parts of Zacatecas to help with mining, including those from
Michoacan, and other slaves including "chinos" who were from the
Philippines. (Eric...you might find this interesting with your discovery of your DNA
Test and discovery)
_http://www.history.ucsb.edu/courses/tempdownload.php?attach_id=2900_
(http://www.history.ucsb.edu/courses/tempdownload.php?attach_id=2900) .
For me, history has been relayed by those in power, so it is natural that
the records uncovered would have been written and kept by the Spanish. It
is much more interesting to discover roots of those whose voices/hisotry
were oppressed. .
Esperanza
Chicagoland area
I had learned this too, like the USA, Mexico is a diversed countries, all types of European, Asian,
Middle Eastern, African, Native Americans all live in Mexico now. It has become one of the most diversed countries
in America.
-Daniel
_________________________________________________________________
Get gifts for them and cashback for you. Try Bing now.
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This occurs specially with middle and upper class mexicans
(usually espanoles) even if they have one ancestor who is
indio they wont claim it because its not enough for them.
It also depends on how were raised too, if its mostly
Spanish culture would we not identify as spanish?
I have found 1 or two indio ancestors from the 1600s
and 1700s. Then theres also the possible Moctezuma/Esparza
connection, one black ancestor and one jewish ancestor.
For me that was 200-300 years ago if not more. Its not close
hence why I dont claim it, but I am aware they are there!
And then theres the dicho my grandpa always says,
mas espanol mas mejicano.
Which is ironic because Mejico is a pluricultural nation.
-Daniel
_________________________________________________________________
Chat with Messenger straight from your Hotmail inbox.
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/hotmail_bl1/hotmail_bl1.as…
My father's grand mother's family was descended from the Hurtado de Mendozas, the de Andas and the Altamiranos, and so many noble and royal families. Such a great legacy. We need to share this information with our children. Just sharing, Marge
Not sure...I could legally and socially say all altenos are hidalgos by birth.
And since all of the altenos intermarried within 100 years everyone was
already related on the meseta, Aguascalientes, parts of Zac , Gto, Mich,
and SLP. Go figure!
Regards,
Daniel
_________________________________________________________________
Windows 7: It works the way you want. Learn more.
http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?ocid=PID24727::…
What you said about them all intermarrying the first 100 years is true but what I have found in my research is that many of them had already intermarried many times over the previous 150 years
------Original Message------
From: Daniel Mendez de Camino y Soto
Sender: general-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
ReplyTo: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal blood
Sent: Nov 28, 2009 2:36 PM
Yes I agree...it is much debated that the altenos (early society) were anti semitic, yet
three semitic descent families were able to intermarry into mainstream alteno socety
The Padilla Davila, Renteria and others. It is confirmed most of the early European settlers
in Los Altos were already related over and over in the book, La Secreta relacion de los
Conquistadores. The Ruiz de Velasco were related to the viceroy Mendoza and (I suspect
descend from the Viceroy Luis de Velasco.
The Hurtado de Mendoza family is the main source of royal blood in Los Altos, I am currently
working (or at least one of my projects) is to study the Hernandez de Arellano family; I already
suspect who don Toribio's parents were.
The de Anda y Altamirano family was another powerful Spanish family. Includes various conquistadores
and is a compound surname, de Anda and Altamirano de Castilla. I was able to trace the Altamirano
de Castilla back to Pedro I 'el Cruel', rey de Castilla. In Mexico City is where de Anda and Altamirano
de Castilla was compounded when a marriage took place creating a new name, de Anda y Altamirano
and eventually made it to Nueva Galicia and present day Los altos region.
I personally dont think, us altenos 'are' royalty; our ancestors were so we do have the blood. Today
were are just descendants of the aristocracy that once (some might argue oligarchy) ruled Mejico.
I have been fascinated with Los Altos; So much history and so much craziness.
I also have two instances with the inquisition. Andres Ruiz de Esparza and I descend
from the General Inquisitiator Francisco Martin de Gallardo.
Regards,
Daniel Camino
_________________________________________________________________
Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection.
http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141665/direct/01/
Which 150 years are you talking about? I know even today as we speak altenos still intermarry far close then they did
during the colony. Our gene pool is so small now we all have basically the same DNA and similar charateristics, I have 3rd
cousins that alomst are idential to me!
-Daniel
> To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
> From: mygenes2000@yahoo.com
> Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2009 00:34:16 +0000
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal blood
>
> What you said about them all intermarrying the first 100 years is true but what I have found in my research is that many of them had already intermarried many times over the previous 150 years
_________________________________________________________________
Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft's powerful SPAM protection.
http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141664/direct/01/
http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141664/direct/01/
I am talking about the 150 years before coming to the americas
------Original Message------
From: Daniel Mendez de Camino y Soto
Sender: general-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
ReplyTo: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal blood
Sent: Nov 28, 2009 4:57 PM
Which 150 years are you talking about? I know even today as we speak altenos still intermarry far close then they did
during the colony. Our gene pool is so small now we all have basically the same DNA and similar charateristics, I have 3rd
cousins that alomst are idential to me!
-Daniel
> To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
> From: mygenes2000@yahoo.com
> Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2009 00:34:16 +0000
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal blood
>
> What you said about them all intermarrying the first 100 years is true but what I have found in my research is that many of them had already intermarried many times over the previous 150 years
_________________________________________________________________
Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft's powerful SPAM protection.
http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141664/direct/01/
http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141664/direct/01/
oh yeah most Spaniards were already related through royal lines and such.
_________________________________________________________________
Windows 7: I wanted simpler, now it's simpler. I'm a rock star.
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Alteños intermerried for 300 years y lo sigue haciendo !
Ruben Casillas M.
--- El sáb 28-nov-09, Daniel Mendez de Camino y Soto escribió:
De:: Daniel Mendez de Camino y Soto
Asunto: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal blood
A: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Fecha: sábado 28 de noviembre de 2009, 16:40
Not sure...I could legally and socially say all altenos are hidalgos by birth.
And since all of the altenos intermarried within 100 years everyone was
already related on the meseta, Aguascalientes, parts of Zac , Gto, Mich,
and SLP. Go figure!
Regards,
Daniel
_________________________________________________________________
Windows 7: It works the way you want. Learn more.
http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?ocid=PID24727::…
Hola ruben
Los altenos intermarried for 150 years before becoming altenos and doing it all over again for 300
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
-----Original Message-----
From: ruben casillas moreno
Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2009 16:15:46
To:
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal blood
Alteños intermerried for 300 years y lo sigue haciendo !
Ruben Casillas M.
--- El sáb 28-nov-09, Daniel Mendez de Camino y Soto escribió:
De:: Daniel Mendez de Camino y Soto
Asunto: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal blood
A: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Fecha: sábado 28 de noviembre de 2009, 16:40
Not sure...I could legally and socially say all altenos are hidalgos by birth.
And since all of the altenos intermarried within 100 years everyone was
already related on the meseta, Aguascalientes, parts of Zac , Gto, Mich,
and SLP. Go figure!
Regards,
Daniel
_________________________________________________________________
Windows 7: It works the way you want. Learn more.
http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?ocid=PID24727::…
Tienes razón, you are right !!!!!!!
Ruben Casillas M.
--- El dom 29-nov-09, mygenes2000@yahoo.com escribió:
De:: mygenes2000@yahoo.com
Asunto: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal blood
A: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Fecha: domingo 29 de noviembre de 2009, 18:40
Hola ruben
Los altenos intermarried for 150 years before becoming altenos and doing it all over again for 300
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
-----Original Message-----
From: ruben casillas moreno
Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2009 16:15:46
To:
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal blood
Alteños intermerried for 300 years y lo sigue haciendo !
Ruben Casillas M.
--- El sáb 28-nov-09, Daniel Mendez de Camino y Soto escribió:
De:: Daniel Mendez de Camino y Soto
Asunto: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal blood
A: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Fecha: sábado 28 de noviembre de 2009, 16:40
Not sure...I could legally and socially say all altenos are hidalgos by birth.
And since all of the altenos intermarried within 100 years everyone was
already related on the meseta, Aguascalientes, parts of Zac , Gto, Mich,
and SLP. Go figure!
Regards,
Daniel
_________________________________________________________________
Windows 7: It works the way you want. Learn more.
http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?ocid=PID24727::…
Como dice el dicho: a la prima, se le arrima! (mexican slang)
-----Mensaje original-----
De: general-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
[mailto:general-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org] En nombre de ruben
casillas moreno
Enviado el: Sunday, November 29, 2009 6:57 PM
Para: general@nuestrosranchos.org; mygenes2000@yahoo.com
Asunto: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal blood
Tienes razón, you are right !!!!!!!
Ruben Casillas M.
--- El dom 29-nov-09, mygenes2000@yahoo.com
escribió:
De:: mygenes2000@yahoo.com
Asunto: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal blood
A: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Fecha: domingo 29 de noviembre de 2009, 18:40
Hola ruben
Los altenos intermarried for 150 years before becoming altenos and doing it
all over again for 300
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
-----Original Message-----
From: ruben casillas moreno
Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2009 16:15:46
To:
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal blood
Alteños intermerried for 300 years y lo sigue haciendo !
Ruben Casillas M.
--- El sáb 28-nov-09, Daniel Mendez de Camino y Soto
escribió:
De:: Daniel Mendez de Camino y Soto
Asunto: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal blood
A: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Fecha: sábado 28 de noviembre de 2009, 16:40
Not sure...I could legally and socially say all altenos are hidalgos by
birth.
And since all of the altenos intermarried within 100 years everyone was
already related on the meseta, Aguascalientes, parts of Zac , Gto, Mich,
and SLP. Go figure!
Regards,
Daniel
_________________________________________________________________
Windows 7: It works the way you want. Learn more.
http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?ocid=PID24727::…
TAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_evergreen:112009v2
La prima es para que se exprima!!!
J. Gonzalez
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rick Rodriguez"
To:
Sent: Sunday, November 29, 2009 17:29
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal blood
Como dice el dicho: a la prima, se le arrima! (mexican slang)
-----Mensaje original-----
De: general-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
[mailto:general-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org] En nombre de ruben
casillas moreno
Enviado el: Sunday, November 29, 2009 6:57 PM
Para: general@nuestrosranchos.org; mygenes2000@yahoo.com
Asunto: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal blood
Tienes razón, you are right !!!!!!!
Ruben Casillas M.
--- El dom 29-nov-09, mygenes2000@yahoo.com
escribió:
De:: mygenes2000@yahoo.com
Asunto: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal blood
A: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Fecha: domingo 29 de noviembre de 2009, 18:40
Hola ruben
Los altenos intermarried for 150 years before becoming altenos and doing it
all over again for 300
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
-----Original Message-----
From: ruben casillas moreno
Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2009 16:15:46
To:
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal blood
Alteños intermerried for 300 years y lo sigue haciendo !
Ruben Casillas M.
--- El sáb 28-nov-09, Daniel Mendez de Camino y Soto
escribió:
De:: Daniel Mendez de Camino y Soto
Asunto: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Royal blood
A: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Fecha: sábado 28 de noviembre de 2009, 16:40
Not sure...I could legally and socially say all altenos are hidalgos by
birth.
And since all of the altenos intermarried within 100 years everyone was
already related on the meseta, Aguascalientes, parts of Zac , Gto, Mich,
and SLP. Go figure!
Regards,
Daniel
_________________________________________________________________
Windows 7: It works the way you want. Learn more.
http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?ocid=PID24727::…
TAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_evergreen:112009v2
How sexists! Y el primo que?
Just kidding guys. Saludos!
Hi every body,
I am looking for any information about Jacobo Ugarte y Loyola, more specifically about his testament, he past away on august the 18th, 1798 o 1799 in Guadalajara, Jalisco.
I know I have seen references to those families from Los Altos that are known to have Jewish roots, but am having difficulty locating them in the archives. Would someone please assist me?
my grandpa got 12% middle eastern on ancestry, so you aren't the only mexican with above noise level middle eastern dna
Not all Jewish ancestry shows up as middle eastern dna. Many Ashkenazi Jews show European ancestry dna. The Jewish line that Toribio Hernandez Arellano descends from would show European ancestry dna. The idea that Jews more often married within their own family circles was strong in the davidic line. The Jewish families from Eastern Europe that immigrated into the Iberian peninsula tended to marry into the same families.there were about a couple dozen families that intermarried often in the 13th and 14th centuries.in Aragon and Southern France.
my grandpa got 5% european jewish as well. sometime ago i did the free transfer to ftdna, but i haven't got 4 people refered yet so i can't see his ftdna transfer myorigins results yet.
Not all Jewish ancestry shows up as middle eastern dna. The Jewish line that Toribio Hernandez Arellano descends from also shows European ancestry dna. The idea that Jews more often married within their own family circles was strong in the davidic line. The Jewish families from Eastern Europe that immigrated into the Iberian peninsula tended to marry into the same families.there were about a couple dozen families that intermarried often in the 13th and 14th centuries.in Aragon and Southern France.
Dear Raquel,
In the past year I have learned a lot more about the information that you seek. I am continuing my research so my book isn't finished yet. I have found that some of our lines traveled from Easter Europe a century and two centuries before the dispersal from the Iberian peninsula. These are not consider Sephardic Jews, they are called Ashkenazi Jews. This information helps explain your DNA results. I will let you know when I finish my book.
Thanks,
Rick A Ricci
I also came back with 3% Ashkenazi Jewish roots but don't know if it's from my Fathers Jerez, Zacatecas roots or my Mothers Michoacan, Jalisco roots. Is there a way to find out?
I'm also wondering why the comment that this is a sensitive subject to some members? Isn't our quest to find, reclaim and share the lineage and genetics of our ancestors when possible?
Linda Castanon-Long in Olympia, Wa
Jewish ancestry is a sensitive subject on this site.
Many genealogists on this site claim that our Jalisco Jewish ancestral lines are a myth. These genealodgists have ignored or discarded what we know about the Jewish presence in the Iberian peninsula from at least 2000 years ago. They claim "Christiano Viejo" status for all of their lines.
Toribio Hernandez de Arellano definitely has Jewish ancestry from his father. This line definitely has Ashkenazi Jewish and davidic line history.
The de la Torre Ledesma family definitely has some Jewish ancestry that they share with the Padilla-Davila and Rodriguez de Hijar families.
Yes, both Toribio Hernandez de Arellano and Pedro Ledesma will also show a lot of European ancestry.
Some people will claim that technically Toribio Hernandez de Arellano s descendants can claim "Christiano Viejo " status as his ancestor converted to Catholicism in August of 1389, two years before the 1391 forced conversions. His wife filed for a divorce when he converted. Many people use 1391 as a cutoff point since most conversions after 1391 carried a doubt as to whether they really converted or were just faking it to escape torture.
thank you so much for sharing your research and information on this subject.
My Dads Castanon line was Ribi and my maternal grandfather Gutierrez was Haplogroup N but now deceased and the site I did his dna on didn't break it down. My MTDNA was haplogroup A but I can only take that line back to abt 1850. Anything you share is of great value to me especially on the Ashkenazi Jewish roots.
Linda Castanon-Long
thank you so much for sharing your research and information on this subject.
My Dads Castanon line was Ribi and my maternal grandfather Gutierrez was Haplogroup N but now deceased and the site I did his dna on didn't break it down. My MTDNA was haplogroup A but I can only take that line back to abt 1850. Anything you share is of great value to me especially on the Ashkenazi Jewish roots.
Linda Castanon-Long
thank you so much for sharing your research and information on this subject.
My Dads Castanon line was Ribi and my maternal grandfather Gutierrez was Haplogroup N but now deceased and the site I did his dna on didn't break it down. My MTDNA was haplogroup A but I can only take that line back to abt 1850. Anything you share is of great value to me especially on the Ashkenazi Jewish roots.
Linda Castanon-Long
i'd consider toribio hernandez to be sephardic not askenazi, since azkenazi tends to refer to non-iberian european jews. i think there's other jewish lineages besides toribio's since my granparents don't appear to be descendents of him and my grandpa's dna results suggest that he has at least a little sephardic ancestry(like 1/8-ish or higher).
We had Ashkenazi Jews move into Spain in the 13th and 14th centuries. They tended to marry within their own group up until the dispersion. They had some different traditions than the Jews in the Iberian peninsula. Toribios paternal ancestry was part of this group. Toribio also descended from the davidic line.
The Jewish lines shared by the Padilla, Dela Torre Ledesma, and Rodriguez de Hijar does seem to be Sephardic.
are the de la torre ledesma related to the de la torre family in jerez/tepetongo/huejucar vincinity?
on another note, i haven't figured out which lines my grandpa got his me/sephardic from
I'd love to know this information too since so many have De la Torre in the Jerez, Tepetongo and Huejucar areas.
Linda in Olympia, Wa
I don't know if the De la Torre in the Jerez, Tepetongo and Huejucar areas are the same De La Torre Ledesma. My De la Torre family that I have studied is widespread in Nueva Galicia. My more immediate De la Torre family is in los Altos de Jalisco and Aguascalientes.
I would like to review the documents myself. Where can i find these documents?
This post comes out of no where. I have no idea what the writer is referring to.
Why do I never receive any of the posts from any of the forums. I've checked at the
site and I'm subscribed to all mailing lists, but receive nothing. What's wrong?
Thanks so much.
Alice BB
--------------------------------------------
On Sat, 1/9/16, jlblonde@sbcglobal.net wrote:
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Where is the evidence?
To: general@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Date: Saturday, January 9, 2016, 6:06 PM
I would like to review the documents
myself. Where can i find these
documents?
To read all the information. Go to the website, log in, and read from there.
There are problems with the mail delivery in the various forums
To read all the messages go to the website, log in, and read
To post to the group you should be able to reply to the messages that are
delivered but to be safe you should:
Go to the website, log in, and post from the website.
Joseph
=========================
Joseph Puentes
Clean@h2opodcast.com
http://h2opodcast.com/vsse.html
> -----Original Message-----
> From: General [mailto:general-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org] On
> Behalf Of Alice Blake
> Sent: Saturday, January 09, 2016 7:49 PM
> To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Where is the evidence?
>
> This post comes out of no where. I have no idea what the writer is
> referring to.
> Why do I never receive any of the posts from any of the forums. I've
> checked at the site and I'm subscribed to all mailing lists, but
> receive nothing. What's wrong?
> Thanks so much.
> Alice BB
> --------------------------------------------
> On Sat, 1/9/16, jlblonde@sbcglobal.net wrote:
>
> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Where is the evidence?
> To: general@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> Date: Saturday, January 9, 2016, 6:06 PM
>
> I would like to review the documents
> myself. Where can i find these
> documents?
>
I get the same thing. So, if I am really intrigued by a post for which I have not received a prior post, I have to sign in to the Nuestros Ranchos website and I find all the posts there even when I have only received some of them.
Emilie
Port Orchard, WA
> Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2016 00:48:38 +0000
> From: alicebb@att.net
> To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Where is the evidence?
>
> This post comes out of no where. I have no idea what the writer is referring to.
> Why do I never receive any of the posts from any of the forums. I've checked at the
> site and I'm subscribed to all mailing lists, but receive nothing. What's wrong?
> Thanks so much.
> Alice BB
> --------------------------------------------
> On Sat, 1/9/16, jlblonde@sbcglobal.net wrote:
>
> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Where is the evidence?
> To: general@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> Date: Saturday, January 9, 2016, 6:06 PM
>
> I would like to review the documents
> myself. Where can i find these
> documents?
>
https://familysearch.org/search/collection/list#page=1®ion=MEXICO
Pick your state and go browsing.
John P. Schmal
-----Original Message-----
From: jlblonde
To: general
Sent: Sat, Jan 9, 2016 4:06 pm
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Where is the evidence?
I would like to review the documents myself. Where can i find these
documents?
https://familysearch.org/search/collection/list#page=1®ion=MEXICO
Pick your state and go browsing.
John P. Schmal
-----Original Message-----
From: jlblonde
To: general
Sent: Sat, Jan 9, 2016 4:06 pm
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Where is the evidence?
I would like to review the documents myself. Where can i find these
documents?
Hi Raquel allow me to recommend a certain book which I recently researched "Silent Heritage" by Richard Santos. I found it informative and well documented. It refers to the many colonial families who were summond by the Inquisition as suspected Jewish Conversos.Lists names and dates. Good luck.
I'm unsure whether I'm the Raquel for whom this is intended, but I
appreciate the recommendation. It looks like its going to be a challenge
to locate.
Raquel Ruiz
Massachusetts
On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 11:47 PM, wrote:
> I Raquel allow me to recommend a certain book which I recently researched
> "Silent Heritage" by Richard Santos. I found it informative and well
> documented. It refers to the many colonial families who were summond by the
> Inquisition as suspected Jewish Conversos.Lists names and dates. Good luck.
>
this book used is for sale on Amazon for $198. I think there are not many copies out there..Linda
----- Forwarded Message -----
From: Raquel Ruiz
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Tuesday, December 1, 2015 6:26 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Jewish roots
I'm unsure whether I'm the Raquel for whom this is intended, but I
appreciate the recommendation. It looks like its going to be a challenge
to locate.
Raquel Ruiz
Massachusetts
On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 11:47 PM, wrote:
> I Raquel allow me to recommend a certain book which I recently researched
> "Silent Heritage" by Richard Santos. I found it informative and well
> documented. It refers to the many colonial families who were summond by the
> Inquisition as suspected Jewish Conversos.Lists names and dates. Good luck.
>
Hi again Raquel, I was able to get this book through my local county library in Southern CA. I simply gave the librarian the title and author she entered it in her computer and we ordered/borrowed it from a campus of the University of Texas. I've gotten several hard to find and rare historical reference books from University libraries through out the country this way. And it's inexpensive. Good luck.
Thanks for Erlinda, I plan to do just that after I retire next year, so I
can give the resource my full attention.
Raquel
this is a sensitive subject with many members. It is best to discuss your question privately. I am working on a project that will address your results. A post that addresses a small piece of the puzzle of our DNA results can be found in my latest post on the ancestry of Carlo Lomellini. I am working on a book that has a chapter that will more fully address your findings.When I finish that chapter, I will share it with you.
R.A Ricci
Rick
Do you have a publication date for your book?
George Fulton
Hello George
I was hoping to have had it published this past summer but I got caught doing a lot of research which has added more information that I am going to add. I say every year that I hope to publish by the next summer. The difference today is that I am now comfortable publishing the book with the research that I have already completed.
i need to compare the different software programs to make the tables for the book, and decide if the book is only going to be in English or in both English and Spanish.
Even if the book is not published in time, I would hope to at least present a rough draft of the book in July 2016 in Los Angeles, California. I have many elderly relatives that are urging me to present the findings soon.
Rick A Ricci
Rick
Thank you; I'm looking forward to it.
George Fulton
Dear george
I said that I had enough research for the book but new material is discovered and then I have to go back and rewrite a section. I had one of our ancestors as a devout converso who married his daughters to Old Christian noble families. He stated that it was important for them to marry into these families, old Christians with new Christians. However, I just found out that on his deathbed he called out to God using Jewish phrases stating that he was going to him after obeying all of his laws. The line between converso and Jewish is a slippery one at times, and at other times conversion led to fanaticism, like Torquemada.
Although I keep finding these lines, it is important to remember that it is a minority and I keep finding many lines that aren't Jewish. I have found some French lines to my surprise. The great thing about these findings is that I have stories to go with many of these people. The claim that Jewish and French ancestors in Jalisco may be a myth but it is not a myth that there are French and Jewish lines in the 13, 14, and 15th centuries in the Iberian peninsula. Even some Italian lines. Some here and there, not most.
Does anyone have more info on him or descend from this family. His was the son of the proignitor of the anda Surname in los Altos. I dont know who his father was though. He was born ca. 1565 en Guadalajara and married to Beatriz Gonzales de Castaneda.
I have a Ana de Anda y Altamirano whose father is listed as Pedro de And a y Altamirano, born in 1551 Reynos de Castilla, Spain, and whose father is listed as Pedro de And a y Altamirano born in Jardines de San Juan, Salamanca Castilla y Leon.
This is information that was passed down to me so I have no idea how that information was received.
Paul
Sobre el tema de los Anda Altamirano, tengo muchas dudas.
La primera, ¿sabemos cuando vino la unión de Pedro de Anda Castañeda con N. Altamirano?
¿Esta señora Altamirano era pariente del oidor Altamirano? El chantre Diego Flores de la Torre (manuscrito Bancroft) dice que era su sobrina y que la tuvo viviendo en su casa.
El oidor Pedro de Altamirano, natural de Paradines, Extremadura, hijo de Pedro Gutiérrez de Altamirano y de Catalina Díaz de Montenegro, vino a Nueva España, como todos lo saben, en 1581, con su esposa Juana de Santander y sus hijos Pedro y Petronila Altamirano. Parece que sufrieron percances en la travesía.
Dicho oidor, nombra a Pedro de Anda y a su cuñado Juan de Zorita, vecinos de Lagos, como Jueces Receptores de Bienes de difuntos en Zacatecas, para las juisdicciones del mismo Lagos y Teocaltiche, en 18 de junio de 1584. Esto vincula al Oidor Altamirano con Pedro de Anda, marido de Beatríz de Castañeda, hermana de Zorita.
Pero sigue mi pregunta: ¿Como y cuando los de Anda Castañeda se transforman en Anda Altamirano?
Tengo localizado el testamento de Esteban de Pastrana, vecino de Guadalajara, casado con Catalina Ortíz, y deja como a herederos a sus hijos: Pedro y Juana de Anda, Luisa y María Ortíz. Dice en dicho testamento, fechado en Guadalajara en 10 de junio de 1635, que tiene tratado con Esteban de Anda, tío de su mujer, el pleito por la herencia sobre del capitán Pedro de Anda, padre de su esposa, por ser hermano del dicho Esteban. Interesados en el tema, ¿podrían abundarme en el tema?
Deseo aclarar la identidad de los primeros Anda Altamirano y agradecería cualquier información seriamente fundada.
Saludos y gracias
GTT
Estoy excribiendo un ensayo sobre estos: Los Altamirano de Castilla y como
conectan a nosotros, pues ya vengo de los Altamirano de Castilla y los
ANDA Altamirano en varias lineas seperadas. He cogido varios fuentes y mucho
documentos que nos podra ayudar. Este Esteban de Pastrana si lo se. Su esposa
era Catalina Ortiz de Anda, esta ultima viene de una linea iligitima de los De Ana
Altamirano, lo he estudiado bastante muy bien. Pues me voy de prisa.....
Daniel Mendez de Camino y Garcia de Leon
> To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> From: gmotovar@prodigy.net.mx
> Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 09:14:00 -0700
> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Esteban de Pastrana padre de Pedro de Anda
>
> Sobre el tema de los Anda Altamirano, tengo muchas dudas.
>
> La primera, ¿sabemos cuando vino la unión de Pedro de Anda Castañeda con N. Altamirano?
>
> ¿Esta señora Altamirano era pariente del oidor Altamirano? El chantre Diego Flores de la Torre (manuscrito Bancroft) dice que era su sobrina y que la tuvo viviendo en su casa.
>
> El oidor Pedro de Altamirano, natural de Paradines, Extremadura, hijo de Pedro Gutiérrez de Altamirano y de Catalina Díaz de Montenegro, vino a Nueva España, como todos lo saben, en 1581, con su esposa Juana de Santander y sus hijos Pedro y Petronila Altamirano. Parece que sufrieron percances en la travesía.
>
> Dicho oidor, nombra a Pedro de Anda y a su cuñado Juan de Zorita, vecinos de Lagos, como Jueces Receptores de Bienes de difuntos en Zacatecas, para las juisdicciones del mismo Lagos y Teocaltiche, en 18 de junio de 1584. Esto vincula al Oidor Altamirano con Pedro de Anda, marido de Beatríz de Castañeda, hermana de Zorita.
>
> Pero sigue mi pregunta: ¿Como y cuando los de Anda Castañeda se transforman en Anda Altamirano?
>
> Tengo localizado el testamento de Esteban de Pastrana, vecino de Guadalajara, casado con Catalina Ortíz, y deja como a herederos a sus hijos: Pedro y Juana de Anda, Luisa y María Ortíz. Dice en dicho testamento, fechado en Guadalajara en 10 de junio de 1635, que tiene tratado con Esteban de Anda, tío de su mujer, el pleito por la herencia sobre del capitán Pedro de Anda, padre de su esposa, por ser hermano del dicho Esteban. Interesados en el tema, ¿podrían abundarme en el tema?
>
> Deseo aclarar la identidad de los primeros Anda Altamirano y agradecería cualquier información seriamente fundada.
>
> Saludos y gracias
>
> GTT
Es de otro modo, los Anda nunca eran Anda Castaneda, aunque Pedro de Anda Altamirano
era casado a Beatriz Gonzalez de Castaneda. Hay varios expedientes en Archivo Historico
de Guadalajara, sobre este Pedro de Anda, aunque creo que habia dos PEdro de Anda,
el viejo y el hijo, ya que en los expedientes se tratan de hombres diferentes de una
edad muy seperada. Pedro de Ana Altamirano caso a Beatriz de Castaneda hija del conquistador
Pedro de Castaneda. Esto dice que el apellido ANDA ALTAMIRANO es poco mas viejo. Son los
padres de este dicho Pedro que componieron sus apellidos. Segun los registros que he conseguido
lo puntan a ese modo. El apellido Anda Altamirano formo en los principios anos en unas de las Guadalajaras
cuando una union muy importante ocurrio. Espero que en mi ensayo puedo explicar todo.
Daniel Mendez de Camino y Garcia de Leon
> To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> From: gmotovar@prodigy.net.mx
> Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 09:14:00 -0700
> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Esteban de Pastrana padre de Pedro de Anda
>
> Sobre el tema de los Anda Altamirano, tengo muchas dudas.
>
> La primera, ¿sabemos cuando vino la unión de Pedro de Anda Castañeda con N. Altamirano?
>
> ¿Esta señora Altamirano era pariente del oidor Altamirano? El chantre Diego Flores de la Torre (manuscrito Bancroft) dice que era su sobrina y que la tuvo viviendo en su casa.
>
> El oidor Pedro de Altamirano, natural de Paradines, Extremadura, hijo de Pedro Gutiérrez de Altamirano y de Catalina Díaz de Montenegro, vino a Nueva España, como todos lo saben, en 1581, con su esposa Juana de Santander y sus hijos Pedro y Petronila Altamirano. Parece que sufrieron percances en la travesía.
>
> Dicho oidor, nombra a Pedro de Anda y a su cuñado Juan de Zorita, vecinos de Lagos, como Jueces Receptores de Bienes de difuntos en Zacatecas, para las juisdicciones del mismo Lagos y Teocaltiche, en 18 de junio de 1584. Esto vincula al Oidor Altamirano con Pedro de Anda, marido de Beatríz de Castañeda, hermana de Zorita.
>
> Pero sigue mi pregunta: ¿Como y cuando los de Anda Castañeda se transforman en Anda Altamirano?
>
> Tengo localizado el testamento de Esteban de Pastrana, vecino de Guadalajara, casado con Catalina Ortíz, y deja como a herederos a sus hijos: Pedro y Juana de Anda, Luisa y María Ortíz. Dice en dicho testamento, fechado en Guadalajara en 10 de junio de 1635, que tiene tratado con Esteban de Anda, tío de su mujer, el pleito por la herencia sobre del capitán Pedro de Anda, padre de su esposa, por ser hermano del dicho Esteban. Interesados en el tema, ¿podrían abundarme en el tema?
>
> Deseo aclarar la identidad de los primeros Anda Altamirano y agradecería cualquier información seriamente fundada.
>
> Saludos y gracias
>
> GTT
Tengo el pase de Indias a México de Beatriz de Castañeda, con su hermana y
Juan de Zorita y ofrece los nombres de sus padres, que no corresponden al
del conquistador Pedro de Castañeda.
Luego envío el dato exacto.
Saludos
GTT
-----Mensaje original-----
De: research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
[mailto:research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org] En nombre de Daniel
Mendez de Camino y Garcia de Leon
Enviado el: Miércoles, 21 de Julio de 2010 04:45 a.m.
Para: Patty Hoyos
Asunto: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Esteban de Pastrana padre de Pedro de Anda
Es de otro modo, los Anda nunca eran Anda Castaneda, aunque Pedro de Anda
Altamirano
era casado a Beatriz Gonzalez de Castaneda. Hay varios expedientes en
Archivo Historico
de Guadalajara, sobre este Pedro de Anda, aunque creo que habia dos PEdro de
Anda,
el viejo y el hijo, ya que en los expedientes se tratan de hombres
diferentes de una
edad muy seperada. Pedro de Ana Altamirano caso a Beatriz de Castaneda hija
del conquistador
Pedro de Castaneda. Esto dice que el apellido ANDA ALTAMIRANO es poco mas
viejo. Son los
padres de este dicho Pedro que componieron sus apellidos. Segun los
registros que he conseguido
lo puntan a ese modo. El apellido Anda Altamirano formo en los principios
anos en unas de las Guadalajaras
cuando una union muy importante ocurrio. Espero que en mi ensayo puedo
explicar todo.
Daniel Mendez de Camino y Garcia de Leon
> To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> From: gmotovar@prodigy.net.mx
> Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 09:14:00 -0700
> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Esteban de Pastrana padre de Pedro de Anda
>
> Sobre el tema de los Anda Altamirano, tengo muchas dudas.
>
> La primera, ¿sabemos cuando vino la unión de Pedro de Anda Castañeda con
N. Altamirano?
>
> ¿Esta señora Altamirano era pariente del oidor Altamirano? El chantre
Diego Flores de la Torre (manuscrito Bancroft) dice que era su sobrina y que
la tuvo viviendo en su casa.
>
> El oidor Pedro de Altamirano, natural de Paradines, Extremadura, hijo de
Pedro Gutiérrez de Altamirano y de Catalina Díaz de Montenegro, vino a Nueva
España, como todos lo saben, en 1581, con su esposa Juana de Santander y sus
hijos Pedro y Petronila Altamirano. Parece que sufrieron percances en la
travesía.
>
> Dicho oidor, nombra a Pedro de Anda y a su cuñado Juan de Zorita, vecinos
de Lagos, como Jueces Receptores de Bienes de difuntos en Zacatecas, para
las juisdicciones del mismo Lagos y Teocaltiche, en 18 de junio de 1584.
Esto vincula al Oidor Altamirano con Pedro de Anda, marido de Beatríz de
Castañeda, hermana de Zorita.
>
> Pero sigue mi pregunta: ¿Como y cuando los de Anda Castañeda se
transforman en Anda Altamirano?
>
> Tengo localizado el testamento de Esteban de Pastrana, vecino de
Guadalajara, casado con Catalina Ortíz, y deja como a herederos a sus hijos:
Pedro y Juana de Anda, Luisa y María Ortíz. Dice en dicho testamento,
fechado en Guadalajara en 10 de junio de 1635, que tiene tratado con Esteban
de Anda, tío de su mujer, el pleito por la herencia sobre del capitán Pedro
de Anda, padre de su esposa, por ser hermano del dicho Esteban. Interesados
en el tema, ¿podrían abundarme en el tema?
>
> Deseo aclarar la identidad de los primeros Anda Altamirano y agradecería
cualquier información seriamente fundada.
>
> Saludos y gracias
>
> GTT
Saque estos datos, de Mariano Gonzalez Leal, obviamente necesitamos ser mas cuidados con cual
quier fuente.
Daniel Mendez de Camino y Garcia de Leon
> From: gmotovar@prodigy.net.mx
> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 14:10:04 -1200
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Esteban de Pastrana padre de Pedro de Anda
>
> Tengo el pase de Indias a México de Beatriz de Castañeda, con su hermana y
> Juan de Zorita y ofrece los nombres de sus padres, que no corresponden al
> del conquistador Pedro de Castañeda.
>
> Luego envío el dato exacto.
>
> Saludos
>
> GTT
>
> -----Mensaje original-----
> De: research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> [mailto:research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org] En nombre de Daniel
> Mendez de Camino y Garcia de Leon
> Enviado el: Miércoles, 21 de Julio de 2010 04:45 a.m.
> Para: Patty Hoyos
> Asunto: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Esteban de Pastrana padre de Pedro de Anda
>
>
> Es de otro modo, los Anda nunca eran Anda Castaneda, aunque Pedro de Anda
> Altamirano
>
> era casado a Beatriz Gonzalez de Castaneda. Hay varios expedientes en
> Archivo Historico
>
> de Guadalajara, sobre este Pedro de Anda, aunque creo que habia dos PEdro de
> Anda,
>
> el viejo y el hijo, ya que en los expedientes se tratan de hombres
> diferentes de una
>
> edad muy seperada. Pedro de Ana Altamirano caso a Beatriz de Castaneda hija
> del conquistador
>
> Pedro de Castaneda. Esto dice que el apellido ANDA ALTAMIRANO es poco mas
> viejo. Son los
>
> padres de este dicho Pedro que componieron sus apellidos. Segun los
> registros que he conseguido
>
> lo puntan a ese modo. El apellido Anda Altamirano formo en los principios
> anos en unas de las Guadalajaras
>
> cuando una union muy importante ocurrio. Espero que en mi ensayo puedo
> explicar todo.
>
>
>
> Daniel Mendez de Camino y Garcia de Leon
>
>
>
>
> > To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> > From: gmotovar@prodigy.net.mx
> > Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 09:14:00 -0700
> > Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Esteban de Pastrana padre de Pedro de Anda
> >
> > Sobre el tema de los Anda Altamirano, tengo muchas dudas.
> >
> > La primera, ¿sabemos cuando vino la unión de Pedro de Anda Castañeda con
> N. Altamirano?
> >
> > ¿Esta señora Altamirano era pariente del oidor Altamirano? El chantre
> Diego Flores de la Torre (manuscrito Bancroft) dice que era su sobrina y que
> la tuvo viviendo en su casa.
> >
> > El oidor Pedro de Altamirano, natural de Paradines, Extremadura, hijo de
> Pedro Gutiérrez de Altamirano y de Catalina Díaz de Montenegro, vino a Nueva
> España, como todos lo saben, en 1581, con su esposa Juana de Santander y sus
> hijos Pedro y Petronila Altamirano. Parece que sufrieron percances en la
> travesía.
> >
> > Dicho oidor, nombra a Pedro de Anda y a su cuñado Juan de Zorita, vecinos
> de Lagos, como Jueces Receptores de Bienes de difuntos en Zacatecas, para
> las juisdicciones del mismo Lagos y Teocaltiche, en 18 de junio de 1584.
> Esto vincula al Oidor Altamirano con Pedro de Anda, marido de Beatríz de
> Castañeda, hermana de Zorita.
> >
> > Pero sigue mi pregunta: ¿Como y cuando los de Anda Castañeda se
> transforman en Anda Altamirano?
> >
> > Tengo localizado el testamento de Esteban de Pastrana, vecino de
> Guadalajara, casado con Catalina Ortíz, y deja como a herederos a sus hijos:
> Pedro y Juana de Anda, Luisa y María Ortíz. Dice en dicho testamento,
> fechado en Guadalajara en 10 de junio de 1635, que tiene tratado con Esteban
> de Anda, tío de su mujer, el pleito por la herencia sobre del capitán Pedro
> de Anda, padre de su esposa, por ser hermano del dicho Esteban. Interesados
> en el tema, ¿podrían abundarme en el tema?
> >
> > Deseo aclarar la identidad de los primeros Anda Altamirano y agradecería
> cualquier información seriamente fundada.
> >
> > Saludos y gracias
> >
> > GTT
> > -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
> > Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List
> >
> > To post, send email to:
> > research(at)nuestrosranchos.org
> >
> > To change your subscription, log on to:
> > http://www.nuestrosranchos.org
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from your
> inbox.
> http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL…
> L:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_2
El problema es que te saquen de la ignorancia pero para meterte en la
confusión.
Fue el problema de Dávila Garibi, por ejemplo. Mariano es otra cosa, porque
su trabajo es de tal envergadura, que siempre corre el riesgo de no
comprobar los miles y miles de datos que publica. Es imposible lograr eso en
una vida.
-----Mensaje original-----
De: research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
[mailto:research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org] En nombre de Daniel
Mendez de Camino y Garcia de Leon
Enviado el: Miércoles, 21 de Julio de 2010 07:33 a.m.
Para: Patty Hoyos
Asunto: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Esteban de Pastrana padre de Pedro de Anda
Saque estos datos, de Mariano Gonzalez Leal, obviamente necesitamos ser mas
cuidados con cual
quier fuente.
Daniel Mendez de Camino y Garcia de Leon
> From: gmotovar@prodigy.net.mx
> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 14:10:04 -1200
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Esteban de Pastrana padre de Pedro de Anda
>
> Tengo el pase de Indias a México de Beatriz de Castañeda, con su hermana y
> Juan de Zorita y ofrece los nombres de sus padres, que no corresponden al
> del conquistador Pedro de Castañeda.
>
> Luego envío el dato exacto.
>
> Saludos
>
> GTT
>
> -----Mensaje original-----
> De: research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> [mailto:research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org] En nombre de Daniel
> Mendez de Camino y Garcia de Leon
> Enviado el: Miércoles, 21 de Julio de 2010 04:45 a.m.
> Para: Patty Hoyos
> Asunto: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Esteban de Pastrana padre de Pedro de Anda
>
>
> Es de otro modo, los Anda nunca eran Anda Castaneda, aunque Pedro de Anda
> Altamirano
>
> era casado a Beatriz Gonzalez de Castaneda. Hay varios expedientes en
> Archivo Historico
>
> de Guadalajara, sobre este Pedro de Anda, aunque creo que habia dos PEdro
de
> Anda,
>
> el viejo y el hijo, ya que en los expedientes se tratan de hombres
> diferentes de una
>
> edad muy seperada. Pedro de Ana Altamirano caso a Beatriz de Castaneda
hija
> del conquistador
>
> Pedro de Castaneda. Esto dice que el apellido ANDA ALTAMIRANO es poco mas
> viejo. Son los
>
> padres de este dicho Pedro que componieron sus apellidos. Segun los
> registros que he conseguido
>
> lo puntan a ese modo. El apellido Anda Altamirano formo en los principios
> anos en unas de las Guadalajaras
>
> cuando una union muy importante ocurrio. Espero que en mi ensayo puedo
> explicar todo.
>
>
>
> Daniel Mendez de Camino y Garcia de Leon
>
>
>
>
> > To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> > From: gmotovar@prodigy.net.mx
> > Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 09:14:00 -0700
> > Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Esteban de Pastrana padre de Pedro de Anda
> >
> > Sobre el tema de los Anda Altamirano, tengo muchas dudas.
> >
> > La primera, ¿sabemos cuando vino la unión de Pedro de Anda Castañeda con
> N. Altamirano?
> >
> > ¿Esta señora Altamirano era pariente del oidor Altamirano? El chantre
> Diego Flores de la Torre (manuscrito Bancroft) dice que era su sobrina y
que
> la tuvo viviendo en su casa.
> >
> > El oidor Pedro de Altamirano, natural de Paradines, Extremadura, hijo de
> Pedro Gutiérrez de Altamirano y de Catalina Díaz de Montenegro, vino a
Nueva
> España, como todos lo saben, en 1581, con su esposa Juana de Santander y
sus
> hijos Pedro y Petronila Altamirano. Parece que sufrieron percances en la
> travesía.
> >
> > Dicho oidor, nombra a Pedro de Anda y a su cuñado Juan de Zorita,
vecinos
> de Lagos, como Jueces Receptores de Bienes de difuntos en Zacatecas, para
> las juisdicciones del mismo Lagos y Teocaltiche, en 18 de junio de 1584.
> Esto vincula al Oidor Altamirano con Pedro de Anda, marido de Beatríz de
> Castañeda, hermana de Zorita.
> >
> > Pero sigue mi pregunta: ¿Como y cuando los de Anda Castañeda se
> transforman en Anda Altamirano?
> >
> > Tengo localizado el testamento de Esteban de Pastrana, vecino de
> Guadalajara, casado con Catalina Ortíz, y deja como a herederos a sus
hijos:
> Pedro y Juana de Anda, Luisa y María Ortíz. Dice en dicho testamento,
> fechado en Guadalajara en 10 de junio de 1635, que tiene tratado con
Esteban
> de Anda, tío de su mujer, el pleito por la herencia sobre del capitán
Pedro
> de Anda, padre de su esposa, por ser hermano del dicho Esteban.
Interesados
> en el tema, ¿podrían abundarme en el tema?
> >
> > Deseo aclarar la identidad de los primeros Anda Altamirano y agradecería
> cualquier información seriamente fundada.
> >
> > Saludos y gracias
> >
> > GTT
> > -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
> > Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List
> >
> > To post, send email to:
> > research(at)nuestrosranchos.org
> >
> > To change your subscription, log on to:
> > http://www.nuestrosranchos.org
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from your
> inbox.
>
http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL…
> L:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_2
I found a 1553 file from the Mexico City Sagrario which shows that a person named Juan de Altamirano el Viejo had a daughter named Isabel. They were godparents at the baptism of Agustina, the daughter of Juan de Altamirano and dona Petronilla.
I was wondering if this Isabel de Altamirano could be the the wife of Pedro de Anda.
The archive is located at:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:939Z-RHND-R?i=218&wc=3P65-MNP%3…
Mexico DF, Bautismos de españoles 1536-1546, 1552-1589 / Image 2149
very god, Who was Juan Altamirano el viejo?
2016-01-07 10:06 GMT-06:00 :
> I found a 1553 file from the Mexico City Sagrario which shows that a person
> named Juan de Altamirano el Viejo had a daughter named Isabel. They were
> godparents at the baptism of Agustina, the daughter of Juan de Altamirano
> and
> dona Petronilla. I was wondering if this Isabel de Altamirano could be the
> the wife of Pedro de Anda. The archive is located at:
>
> https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:939Z-RHND-R?i=218&wc=3P65-MNP%3…
> Mexico DF, Bautismos de españoles 1536-1546, 1552-1589 / Image 2149
>
very god, Who was Juan Altamirano el viejo?
2016-01-07 10:06 GMT-06:00 :
> I found a 1553 file from the Mexico City Sagrario which shows that a person
> named Juan de Altamirano el Viejo had a daughter named Isabel. They were
> godparents at the baptism of Agustina, the daughter of Juan de Altamirano
> and
> dona Petronilla. I was wondering if this Isabel de Altamirano could be the
> the wife of Pedro de Anda. The archive is located at:
>
> https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:939Z-RHND-R?i=218&wc=3P65-MNP%3…
> Mexico DF, Bautismos de españoles 1536-1546, 1552-1589 / Image 2149
>
I have no clue who the parents, "Juan de Altamirano and his wife dona Petronilla," are.
The "licenciado Altamirano" mentioned must be el Lic. Juan Gutierrez de Altamirano, married to Juana Altamirano. It appears that two of his sons are also godparents.
"Juan Alonso" is noted as the son of el licenciado Altamirano. Juan Alonso de Altamirano was married to Isabel de Estrada.
"Hernan Gutierrez and his wife dona Fca" may be el Lic. Juan Gutierrez de Altamirano's son Hernan Gutierrez de Altamirano, married to Francisco Osorio.
I also don't know the identity of "Juan de Altamirano el viejo" who has a daughter named Isabel.
L.C.P. Jorge Luis Ramírez Gómez.
Tepatitlán de Morelos, Jalisco, México.
Tel.: 3781095311
www.facebook.com/jorgeluis.ramirezgomez
> From: gmotovar@prodigy.net.mx
> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 14:10:04 -1200
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Esteban de Pastrana padre de Pedro de Anda
>
> Tengo el pase de Indias a México de Beatriz de Castañeda, con su hermana y
> Juan de Zorita y ofrece los nombres de sus padres, que no corresponden al
> del conquistador Pedro de Castañeda.
>
> Luego envío el dato exacto.
>
> Saludos
>
> GTT
>
> -----Mensaje original-----
> De: research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> [mailto:research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org] En nombre de Daniel
> Mendez de Camino y Garcia de Leon
> Enviado el: Miércoles, 21 de Julio de 2010 04:45 a.m.
> Para: Patty Hoyos
> Asunto: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Esteban de Pastrana padre de Pedro de Anda
>
>
> Es de otro modo, los Anda nunca eran Anda Castaneda, aunque Pedro de Anda
> Altamirano
>
> era casado a Beatriz Gonzalez de Castaneda. Hay varios expedientes en
> Archivo Historico
>
> de Guadalajara, sobre este Pedro de Anda, aunque creo que habia dos PEdro de
> Anda,
>
> el viejo y el hijo, ya que en los expedientes se tratan de hombres
> diferentes de una
>
> edad muy seperada. Pedro de Ana Altamirano caso a Beatriz de Castaneda hija
> del conquistador
>
> Pedro de Castaneda. Esto dice que el apellido ANDA ALTAMIRANO es poco mas
> viejo. Son los
>
> padres de este dicho Pedro que componieron sus apellidos. Segun los
> registros que he conseguido
>
> lo puntan a ese modo. El apellido Anda Altamirano formo en los principios
> anos en unas de las Guadalajaras
>
> cuando una union muy importante ocurrio. Espero que en mi ensayo puedo
> explicar todo.
>
>
>
> Daniel Mendez de Camino y Garcia de Leon
>
>
>
>
> > To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> > From: gmotovar@prodigy.net.mx
> > Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 09:14:00 -0700
> > Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Esteban de Pastrana padre de Pedro de Anda
> >
> > Sobre el tema de los Anda Altamirano, tengo muchas dudas.
> >
> > La primera, ¿sabemos cuando vino la unión de Pedro de Anda Castañeda con
> N. Altamirano?
> >
> > ¿Esta señora Altamirano era pariente del oidor Altamirano? El chantre
> Diego Flores de la Torre (manuscrito Bancroft) dice que era su sobrina y que
> la tuvo viviendo en su casa.
> >
> > El oidor Pedro de Altamirano, natural de Paradines, Extremadura, hijo de
> Pedro Gutiérrez de Altamirano y de Catalina Díaz de Montenegro, vino a Nueva
> España, como todos lo saben, en 1581, con su esposa Juana de Santander y sus
> hijos Pedro y Petronila Altamirano. Parece que sufrieron percances en la
> travesía.
> >
> > Dicho oidor, nombra a Pedro de Anda y a su cuñado Juan de Zorita, vecinos
> de Lagos, como Jueces Receptores de Bienes de difuntos en Zacatecas, para
> las juisdicciones del mismo Lagos y Teocaltiche, en 18 de junio de 1584.
> Esto vincula al Oidor Altamirano con Pedro de Anda, marido de Beatríz de
> Castañeda, hermana de Zorita.
> >
> > Pero sigue mi pregunta: ¿Como y cuando los de Anda Castañeda se
> transforman en Anda Altamirano?
> >
> > Tengo localizado el testamento de Esteban de Pastrana, vecino de
> Guadalajara, casado con Catalina Ortíz, y deja como a herederos a sus hijos:
> Pedro y Juana de Anda, Luisa y María Ortíz. Dice en dicho testamento,
> fechado en Guadalajara en 10 de junio de 1635, que tiene tratado con Esteban
> de Anda, tío de su mujer, el pleito por la herencia sobre del capitán Pedro
> de Anda, padre de su esposa, por ser hermano del dicho Esteban. Interesados
> en el tema, ¿podrían abundarme en el tema?
> >
> > Deseo aclarar la identidad de los primeros Anda Altamirano y agradecería
> cualquier información seriamente fundada.
> >
> > Saludos y gracias
> >
> > GTT
> > -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
> > Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List
> >
> > To post, send email to:
> > research(at)nuestrosranchos.org
> >
> > To change your subscription, log on to:
> > http://www.nuestrosranchos.org
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from your
> inbox.
> http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL…
> L:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_2
Sabes que GUillermo ya encontre la razon porque Diego Flores de la Torre
tenia una sobrina llamada Isabel Altamirano de Castilla. Era hija de Juan de Anda Altamirano,
hermana de Beatriz de Castaneda esposa del mencionado Diego Flores.
y Juana Ruiz de Nava. Dicha Isabel caso Capt. Francisco Prieto Gallardo el
20 de enero de 1659 en Teocaltiche. Interesante como esta Isabel usa
Altamirano de Castilla ya que su padre era DE ANDA ALTAMIRANO, esto tambien
es un base para mi evidencia que esta Isabel uso el nombre su abuela.
Daniel Mendez de Camino y Garcia de Leon
> To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> From: gmotovar@prodigy.net.mx
> Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 09:14:00 -0700
> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Esteban de Pastrana padre de Pedro de Anda
>
> Sobre el tema de los Anda Altamirano, tengo muchas dudas.
>
> La primera, ¿sabemos cuando vino la unión de Pedro de Anda Castañeda con N. Altamirano?
>
> ¿Esta señora Altamirano era pariente del oidor Altamirano? El chantre Diego Flores de la Torre (manuscrito Bancroft) dice que era su sobrina y que la tuvo viviendo en su casa.
>
> El oidor Pedro de Altamirano, natural de Paradines, Extremadura, hijo de Pedro Gutiérrez de Altamirano y de Catalina Díaz de Montenegro, vino a Nueva España, como todos lo saben, en 1581, con su esposa Juana de Santander y sus hijos Pedro y Petronila Altamirano. Parece que sufrieron percances en la travesía.
>
> Dicho oidor, nombra a Pedro de Anda y a su cuñado Juan de Zorita, vecinos de Lagos, como Jueces Receptores de Bienes de difuntos en Zacatecas, para las juisdicciones del mismo Lagos y Teocaltiche, en 18 de junio de 1584. Esto vincula al Oidor Altamirano con Pedro de Anda, marido de Beatríz de Castañeda, hermana de Zorita.
>
> Pero sigue mi pregunta: ¿Como y cuando los de Anda Castañeda se transforman en Anda Altamirano?
>
> Tengo localizado el testamento de Esteban de Pastrana, vecino de Guadalajara, casado con Catalina Ortíz, y deja como a herederos a sus hijos: Pedro y Juana de Anda, Luisa y María Ortíz. Dice en dicho testamento, fechado en Guadalajara en 10 de junio de 1635, que tiene tratado con Esteban de Anda, tío de su mujer, el pleito por la herencia sobre del capitán Pedro de Anda, padre de su esposa, por ser hermano del dicho Esteban. Interesados en el tema, ¿podrían abundarme en el tema?
>
> Deseo aclarar la identidad de los primeros Anda Altamirano y agradecería cualquier información seriamente fundada.
>
> Saludos y gracias
>
> GTT
No lo creo. Todavía no sabemos porque Pedro de Anda Castañeda en sus hijos
transformo el apellido en Anda Altamirano, por eso envie el correo con los
datos del oidor y la relacin que tuvo con Pedro de Anda (sin el Altamirano).
-----Mensaje original-----
De: research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
[mailto:research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org] En nombre de Daniel
Mendez de Camino y Garcia de Leon
Enviado el: Miércoles, 21 de Julio de 2010 04:53 a.m.
Para: Patty Hoyos; Daniel Mendez de Camino y Garcia de Leon
Asunto: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Esteban de Pastrana padre de Pedro de Anda
Sabes que GUillermo ya encontre la razon porque Diego Flores de la Torre
tenia una sobrina llamada Isabel Altamirano de Castilla. Era hija de Juan de
Anda Altamirano,
hermana de Beatriz de Castaneda esposa del mencionado Diego Flores.
y Juana Ruiz de Nava. Dicha Isabel caso Capt. Francisco Prieto Gallardo el
20 de enero de 1659 en Teocaltiche. Interesante como esta Isabel usa
Altamirano de Castilla ya que su padre era DE ANDA ALTAMIRANO, esto tambien
es un base para mi evidencia que esta Isabel uso el nombre su abuela.
Daniel Mendez de Camino y Garcia de Leon
> To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> From: gmotovar@prodigy.net.mx
> Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 09:14:00 -0700
> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Esteban de Pastrana padre de Pedro de Anda
>
> Sobre el tema de los Anda Altamirano, tengo muchas dudas.
>
> La primera, ¿sabemos cuando vino la unión de Pedro de Anda Castañeda con
N. Altamirano?
>
> ¿Esta señora Altamirano era pariente del oidor Altamirano? El chantre
Diego Flores de la Torre (manuscrito Bancroft) dice que era su sobrina y que
la tuvo viviendo en su casa.
>
> El oidor Pedro de Altamirano, natural de Paradines, Extremadura, hijo de
Pedro Gutiérrez de Altamirano y de Catalina Díaz de Montenegro, vino a Nueva
España, como todos lo saben, en 1581, con su esposa Juana de Santander y sus
hijos Pedro y Petronila Altamirano. Parece que sufrieron percances en la
travesía.
>
> Dicho oidor, nombra a Pedro de Anda y a su cuñado Juan de Zorita, vecinos
de Lagos, como Jueces Receptores de Bienes de difuntos en Zacatecas, para
las juisdicciones del mismo Lagos y Teocaltiche, en 18 de junio de 1584.
Esto vincula al Oidor Altamirano con Pedro de Anda, marido de Beatríz de
Castañeda, hermana de Zorita.
>
> Pero sigue mi pregunta: ¿Como y cuando los de Anda Castañeda se
transforman en Anda Altamirano?
>
> Tengo localizado el testamento de Esteban de Pastrana, vecino de
Guadalajara, casado con Catalina Ortíz, y deja como a herederos a sus hijos:
Pedro y Juana de Anda, Luisa y María Ortíz. Dice en dicho testamento,
fechado en Guadalajara en 10 de junio de 1635, que tiene tratado con Esteban
de Anda, tío de su mujer, el pleito por la herencia sobre del capitán Pedro
de Anda, padre de su esposa, por ser hermano del dicho Esteban. Interesados
en el tema, ¿podrían abundarme en el tema?
>
> Deseo aclarar la identidad de los primeros Anda Altamirano y agradecería
cualquier información seriamente fundada.
>
> Saludos y gracias
>
> GTT
Los padres de Pedro de Anda Castaneda son DE ANDA
y Altamirano de Castilla.
Daniel Mendez de Camino y Garcia de Leon
> From: gmotovar@prodigy.net.mx
> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 14:21:01 -1200
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Esteban de Pastrana padre de Pedro de Anda
>
> No lo creo. Todavía no sabemos porque Pedro de Anda Castañeda en sus hijos
> transformo el apellido en Anda Altamirano, por eso envie el correo con los
> datos del oidor y la relacin que tuvo con Pedro de Anda (sin el Altamirano).
>
> -----Mensaje original-----
> De: research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> [mailto:research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org] En nombre de Daniel
> Mendez de Camino y Garcia de Leon
> Enviado el: Miércoles, 21 de Julio de 2010 04:53 a.m.
> Para: Patty Hoyos; Daniel Mendez de Camino y Garcia de Leon
> Asunto: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Esteban de Pastrana padre de Pedro de Anda
>
>
> Sabes que GUillermo ya encontre la razon porque Diego Flores de la Torre
>
> tenia una sobrina llamada Isabel Altamirano de Castilla. Era hija de Juan de
> Anda Altamirano,
>
> hermana de Beatriz de Castaneda esposa del mencionado Diego Flores.
>
> y Juana Ruiz de Nava. Dicha Isabel caso Capt. Francisco Prieto Gallardo el
>
> 20 de enero de 1659 en Teocaltiche. Interesante como esta Isabel usa
>
> Altamirano de Castilla ya que su padre era DE ANDA ALTAMIRANO, esto tambien
>
> es un base para mi evidencia que esta Isabel uso el nombre su abuela.
>
>
>
>
>
> Daniel Mendez de Camino y Garcia de Leon
>
>
>
>
> > To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> > From: gmotovar@prodigy.net.mx
> > Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 09:14:00 -0700
> > Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Esteban de Pastrana padre de Pedro de Anda
> >
> > Sobre el tema de los Anda Altamirano, tengo muchas dudas.
> >
> > La primera, ¿sabemos cuando vino la unión de Pedro de Anda Castañeda con
> N. Altamirano?
> >
> > ¿Esta señora Altamirano era pariente del oidor Altamirano? El chantre
> Diego Flores de la Torre (manuscrito Bancroft) dice que era su sobrina y que
> la tuvo viviendo en su casa.
> >
> > El oidor Pedro de Altamirano, natural de Paradines, Extremadura, hijo de
> Pedro Gutiérrez de Altamirano y de Catalina Díaz de Montenegro, vino a Nueva
> España, como todos lo saben, en 1581, con su esposa Juana de Santander y sus
> hijos Pedro y Petronila Altamirano. Parece que sufrieron percances en la
> travesía.
> >
> > Dicho oidor, nombra a Pedro de Anda y a su cuñado Juan de Zorita, vecinos
> de Lagos, como Jueces Receptores de Bienes de difuntos en Zacatecas, para
> las juisdicciones del mismo Lagos y Teocaltiche, en 18 de junio de 1584.
> Esto vincula al Oidor Altamirano con Pedro de Anda, marido de Beatríz de
> Castañeda, hermana de Zorita.
> >
> > Pero sigue mi pregunta: ¿Como y cuando los de Anda Castañeda se
> transforman en Anda Altamirano?
> >
> > Tengo localizado el testamento de Esteban de Pastrana, vecino de
> Guadalajara, casado con Catalina Ortíz, y deja como a herederos a sus hijos:
> Pedro y Juana de Anda, Luisa y María Ortíz. Dice en dicho testamento,
> fechado en Guadalajara en 10 de junio de 1635, que tiene tratado con Esteban
> de Anda, tío de su mujer, el pleito por la herencia sobre del capitán Pedro
> de Anda, padre de su esposa, por ser hermano del dicho Esteban. Interesados
> en el tema, ¿podrían abundarme en el tema?
> >
> > Deseo aclarar la identidad de los primeros Anda Altamirano y agradecería
> cualquier información seriamente fundada.
> >
> > Saludos y gracias
> >
> > GTT
> > -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
> > Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List
> >
> > To post, send email to:
> > research(at)nuestrosranchos.org
> >
> > To change your subscription, log on to:
> > http://www.nuestrosranchos.org
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Hotmail has tools for the New Busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox.
> http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL…
> L:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_1
Eso no es posible ni está comprobado.
-----Mensaje original-----
De: research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
[mailto:research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org] En nombre de Daniel
Mendez de Camino y Garcia de Leon
Enviado el: Miércoles, 21 de Julio de 2010 07:35 a.m.
Para: Patty Hoyos
Asunto: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Esteban de Pastrana padre de Pedro de Anda
Los padres de Pedro de Anda Castaneda son DE ANDA
y Altamirano de Castilla.
Daniel Mendez de Camino y Garcia de Leon
> From: gmotovar@prodigy.net.mx
> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 14:21:01 -1200
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Esteban de Pastrana padre de Pedro de Anda
>
> No lo creo. Todavía no sabemos porque Pedro de Anda Castañeda en sus hijos
> transformo el apellido en Anda Altamirano, por eso envie el correo con los
> datos del oidor y la relacin que tuvo con Pedro de Anda (sin el
Altamirano).
>
> -----Mensaje original-----
> De: research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> [mailto:research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org] En nombre de Daniel
> Mendez de Camino y Garcia de Leon
> Enviado el: Miércoles, 21 de Julio de 2010 04:53 a.m.
> Para: Patty Hoyos; Daniel Mendez de Camino y Garcia de Leon
> Asunto: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Esteban de Pastrana padre de Pedro de Anda
>
>
> Sabes que GUillermo ya encontre la razon porque Diego Flores de la Torre
>
> tenia una sobrina llamada Isabel Altamirano de Castilla. Era hija de Juan
de
> Anda Altamirano,
>
> hermana de Beatriz de Castaneda esposa del mencionado Diego Flores.
>
> y Juana Ruiz de Nava. Dicha Isabel caso Capt. Francisco Prieto Gallardo el
>
> 20 de enero de 1659 en Teocaltiche. Interesante como esta Isabel usa
>
> Altamirano de Castilla ya que su padre era DE ANDA ALTAMIRANO, esto
tambien
>
> es un base para mi evidencia que esta Isabel uso el nombre su abuela.
>
>
>
>
>
> Daniel Mendez de Camino y Garcia de Leon
>
>
>
>
> > To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> > From: gmotovar@prodigy.net.mx
> > Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 09:14:00 -0700
> > Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Esteban de Pastrana padre de Pedro de Anda
> >
> > Sobre el tema de los Anda Altamirano, tengo muchas dudas.
> >
> > La primera, ¿sabemos cuando vino la unión de Pedro de Anda Castañeda con
> N. Altamirano?
> >
> > ¿Esta señora Altamirano era pariente del oidor Altamirano? El chantre
> Diego Flores de la Torre (manuscrito Bancroft) dice que era su sobrina y
que
> la tuvo viviendo en su casa.
> >
> > El oidor Pedro de Altamirano, natural de Paradines, Extremadura, hijo de
> Pedro Gutiérrez de Altamirano y de Catalina Díaz de Montenegro, vino a
Nueva
> España, como todos lo saben, en 1581, con su esposa Juana de Santander y
sus
> hijos Pedro y Petronila Altamirano. Parece que sufrieron percances en la
> travesía.
> >
> > Dicho oidor, nombra a Pedro de Anda y a su cuñado Juan de Zorita,
vecinos
> de Lagos, como Jueces Receptores de Bienes de difuntos en Zacatecas, para
> las juisdicciones del mismo Lagos y Teocaltiche, en 18 de junio de 1584.
> Esto vincula al Oidor Altamirano con Pedro de Anda, marido de Beatríz de
> Castañeda, hermana de Zorita.
> >
> > Pero sigue mi pregunta: ¿Como y cuando los de Anda Castañeda se
> transforman en Anda Altamirano?
> >
> > Tengo localizado el testamento de Esteban de Pastrana, vecino de
> Guadalajara, casado con Catalina Ortíz, y deja como a herederos a sus
hijos:
> Pedro y Juana de Anda, Luisa y María Ortíz. Dice en dicho testamento,
> fechado en Guadalajara en 10 de junio de 1635, que tiene tratado con
Esteban
> de Anda, tío de su mujer, el pleito por la herencia sobre del capitán
Pedro
> de Anda, padre de su esposa, por ser hermano del dicho Esteban.
Interesados
> en el tema, ¿podrían abundarme en el tema?
> >
> > Deseo aclarar la identidad de los primeros Anda Altamirano y agradecería
> cualquier información seriamente fundada.
> >
> > Saludos y gracias
> >
> > GTT
> > -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
> > Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List
> >
> > To post, send email to:
> > research(at)nuestrosranchos.org
> >
> > To change your subscription, log on to:
> > http://www.nuestrosranchos.org
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Hotmail has tools for the New Busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your
inbox.
>
http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL…
> L:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_1
Daniel,
There is a large branch of de Anda family in San Juan de los Lagos, although most of them have moved to Queretaro and Mexico City.
I talked to Javier de Anda yesterday in Mexico Cy and he told me that one of his cousins (Pablo de Anda Esqueda) who lives in Queretaro, is working on both of his surnames genealogy, including e-mail addresses from all of them.
I´m planning to visit Queretaro in a couple of weeks and I´ll try to contact Pablo. As soon as have further information, I´ll get back to you.
Best Regards,
Juan Jose Ramirez Ibarra
Hola, Bill anterior a esto, te mande preguntar algo, en lo que muy seguramente me puedas ayudar. Solamente que hay un Pedro de Anda Ruiz. Ch; 11 Dec 1616, en Lagos de Moreno. 0221879 Film. Hijo de Juan de Anda y Juana Ruiz, muy posible, otro Pedro más.
Y en este caso ya serían ocho los hijos del dicho Juan de Anda y Juana Ruiz de Nava.
Cordialmente.
Hola, Celestino. Tienes razón, este parece ser otro Pedro de Anda
[Altamirano], hijo de Juan de Anda [Altamirano] y Juana Ruiz [de Nava].
Cronológicamente cae dentro del lapso en que esta pareja tuvo a sus hijos.
Además, era contemporaneo de Pedro de Anda Altamirano, hijo de Esteban de
Anda Altamirano y Catalina López de Portugal. Y los dos vivieron en Santa
María de los Lagos al mismo tiempo.
BILL FIGUEROA
----- Original Message -----
From: "Celestino Villalobos"
To: "Bill Figueroa"
Sent: Saturday, August 22, 2009 8:54 PM
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Pedro de Anda Altamirano
Hola, Bill anterior a esto, te mande preguntar algo, en lo que muy
seguramente me puedas ayudar. Solamente que hay un Pedro de Anda Ruiz. Ch;
11 Dec 1616, en Lagos de Moreno. 0221879 Film. Hijo de Juan de Anda y Juana
Ruiz, muy posible, otro Pedro más.
Y en este caso ya serían ocho los hijos del dicho Juan de Anda y Juana Ruiz
de Nava.
Cordialmente.
Gracias, Bill por tu ayuda. Por otro lado y de acuerdo con la carta de Emilie Garcia a Carlos sería una lastima que un trabajo de toda la vida, se vaya a perder, hablando del trabajo del Sr. Holocombe. Y Claro a todos nos gustaría, poder salvar esos papeles, con información tan valiosa, y estoy hablando por todos aquellos, que no participan por verguenza o por cualquier razón, pero que siempre estamos levandando de las migajitas que caen de la mesa. Y siempre estamos pendientes, de los comentarios, información y noticias, atras de la pantalla.
Cordialmente Celestino
--- On Sun, 8/23/09, Bill Figueroa wrote:
From: Bill Figueroa
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Pedro de Anda Altamirano
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Date: Sunday, August 23, 2009, 12:53 AM
Hola, Celestino. Tienes razón, este parece ser otro Pedro de Anda [Altamirano], hijo de Juan de Anda [Altamirano] y Juana Ruiz [de Nava]. Cronológicamente cae dentro del lapso en que esta pareja tuvo a sus hijos. Además, era contemporaneo de Pedro de Anda Altamirano, hijo de Esteban de Anda Altamirano y Catalina López de Portugal. Y los dos vivieron en Santa María de los Lagos al mismo tiempo.
BILL FIGUEROA
----- Original Message ----- From: "Celestino Villalobos"
To: "Bill Figueroa"
Sent: Saturday, August 22, 2009 8:54 PM
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Pedro de Anda Altamirano
Hola, Bill anterior a esto, te mande preguntar algo, en lo que muy seguramente me puedas ayudar. Solamente que hay un Pedro de Anda Ruiz. Ch; 11 Dec 1616, en Lagos de Moreno. 0221879 Film. Hijo de Juan de Anda y Juana Ruiz, muy posible, otro Pedro más.
Y en este caso ya serían ocho los hijos del dicho Juan de Anda y Juana Ruiz de Nava.
Cordialmente.
Jaime Holcombe, Diversas Cartas.
2. De Pedro Gómez de Portugal e Isabel Ortiz de Anda, tomó los votos matrimoniales 18 de junio 1613. Ella observó como "hija de Pedro de Anda", el "padrinos" fueron Juan de Burgos (la "estrella" en el documento de 1608) y Leonor de Busto. La esposa era hija natural de Pedro de Anda, que también era un hijo natural del capitán Pedro de Anda Altamirano, en el párrafo anterior. La familia era grande, tengo nueve hijos que se casó. Ellos son a menudo registran como mestizos. Madres desconocido para los dos illegitimacies en esta rama.
Las nupcias de 18 de junio 1613 fueron entre Pedro Gómez y Isabel Hortiz, "hija de Pedro de Anda." Él, de natalidad estimada en 1592. Están en mi carta anterior con todos los hijos de sus padres. La carta con la hipótesis de que Manuel Gómez, de Jalos, podría ser prueba de que fueron a Portugal Gómez.
Esposa es Isabel de Pedro Ortiz de Anda, en la mayoría de los registros y dio a luz a once niños, nueve casados. Con espacio limitado en un árbol, no en la lista. A menos que usted le gustaría tener estos datos. Usted nombró a tres-donde se van los otros? Ellos simplemente no caben!
Isabel tuvo que ser una mestiza, porque Pedro no estaba, y algunos de sus descendientes se registran como tales. Algunos indios y mestizos también se casó con otro.
No tengo nada que añadir sobre las próximas dos generaciones. Una pregunta acerca de Josefa de la Cruz, la viuda de Laureano Gómez. Todo lo conocido en su lugar y primer marido muerto de origen? Porque tengo un hombre con ese nombre en mis archivos.
SALVADOR CABRAL VALDES
Jorge y Celestino,
Me alegra que le información les haya servido. Poco a poco voy acumulando
mas información de Jalisco y Zacatecas. Empezé con Aguascalientes porque
allí originaron mis antepasados, empezando por mi bisabuela María Josefa
Frías Ruiz de Esparza, pero poco a poco me he ido extendiendo a los Altos de
Jalisco y Zacatecas. Mi bisabuela nació en Rincón de Romos, Ags. pero sus
ancestros eran de la Ciudad de Aguascalientes por el lado materno y de San
Luis Potosí por el paterno.
Con respecto al libro de Jaime Holcombe, me dió mucha satisfacción saber que
finalmente, 14 años después de la muerte de su padre, sus hijos decidieron
publicar su libro inconcluso "Nosotros". Sus investigaciones fueron
extensas y muy parecidas a las nuestras. Yo siempre he considerado que Mr.
Holcombe fue un investigador muy serio, con una gran afición por la
genealogía. Indudablemente que cometió algunos errores, pero al fin y al
cabo todos somos humanos. Eso nos dice que por muy confiables que sean los
datos, siempre hay que verificarlos.
Volviendo a nuestro tema, hoy revisé unas notas del Archivo de Tierras y
Aguas que hice en 2007 años porque recordaba haber visto unas comisiones y
cédulas reales relacionadas con los propietarios de estancias de ganado
mayor y menor, suertes de huerta, etc. a quienes se pedía que presentaran
los títulos que los acreditaban como propietarios para justificar sus
derechos. Se menciona al Capitán Esteban de Anda Altamirano, vecino de la
jurisdicción de la Villa de Santa María de los Lagos, labrador y criador de
ganados mayores y menores. Voy a buscar las imágenes digitales, talvez
encuentre datos adicionales.
Saludos,
BILL FIGUEROA
Hola Bill y Jorge.
Pues, Bill tengo que confesarte que tengo mucho trabajo que hacer en Aguascalientes. Pues he observado que tu noveno Great Grandparents son mis abuelos tambien, hablando de Luis Molina de Tiscareño y Lorenza Ruiz de Esparza que casaron un 16 May 1623.
Luis Tiscareño y Lorenza Ruiz Esparza, tuvieron como hijo a Juan Tiscareño Ruiz que caso con Isabel Romo de Vivar abt. 1656.
Juan Tiscareño e Isabel Romo de Vivar , tuvieron como hija a Francisca Tiscareño Romo de vivar que caso, abt 1689 con Tomas Villalobos Martin del Campo, él hijo de Salvador Villalobos y Francisca Martin del Campo.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Por otro lado, encontre algo en la Sagrada Mitra de Guadalajara que confirma y reafirma la información que nos diste referente a Pedro de Anda de Altamirano. Ademas que nos informa de los dos matrimonios de Esteban de Anda el joven.
Lagos de Moreno, Jal. Abril 26 de 1703. Exp. 79.- Dispensa de tercero grado de consanguinidad.- Don Esteban de Anda Altamirano, español de 40 años de edad originario y vecino de esta Villa de Santa Maria de los Lagos, viudo de Josefa Moreno de Ortega, hijo legitimo del Cap. Pedro de Anda Altamirano y de Doña Catalina Saenz de Vidaurre, difuntos; con Doña Ines de Pedroza Marmolejo, vecina de la feligresia de la Villa de San Felipe, Obispado de Michoacan, hija legitima del Cap. Juan de Pedroza Marmolejo y de Doña Geronima de Hierro, difuntos. Declaración del pretenso: Porque Catarina Lopez de Portugal y Ana de Portugal fueron hermanas, y la dicha Catarina Lopez de Portugal, tuvo por su hijo al Cap. Pedro de Anda Altamirano, y la dicha Ana de Portugal, al Cap. Juan de Pedraza Marmolejo, y el dicho Cap. Pedro de Anda Altamirano, me tuvo por su hijo, y el dicho Juan de Pedraza Marmolejo, tuvo por su hija a la pretensa. Y las causas que me motivan a
solicitar dicho matrimonio son el de hallarme con cinco hijas doncellas y dos hijos pequeños.
celestino villalobos
--- On Sun, 8/23/09, Bill Figueroa wrote:
From: Bill Figueroa
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Pedro de Anda Altamirano
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Date: Sunday, August 23, 2009, 10:04 PM
Jorge y Celestino,
Me alegra que le información les haya servido. Poco a poco voy acumulando mas información de Jalisco y Zacatecas. Empezé con Aguascalientes porque allí originaron mis antepasados, empezando por mi bisabuela María Josefa Frías Ruiz de Esparza, pero poco a poco me he ido extendiendo a los Altos de Jalisco y Zacatecas. Mi bisabuela nació en Rincón de Romos, Ags. pero sus ancestros eran de la Ciudad de Aguascalientes por el lado materno y de San Luis Potosí por el paterno.
Con respecto al libro de Jaime Holcombe, me dió mucha satisfacción saber que finalmente, 14 años después de la muerte de su padre, sus hijos decidieron publicar su libro inconcluso "Nosotros". Sus investigaciones fueron extensas y muy parecidas a las nuestras. Yo siempre he considerado que Mr. Holcombe fue un investigador muy serio, con una gran afición por la genealogía. Indudablemente que cometió algunos errores, pero al fin y al cabo todos somos humanos. Eso nos dice que por muy confiables que sean los datos, siempre hay que verificarlos.
Volviendo a nuestro tema, hoy revisé unas notas del Archivo de Tierras y Aguas que hice en 2007 años porque recordaba haber visto unas comisiones y cédulas reales relacionadas con los propietarios de estancias de ganado mayor y menor, suertes de huerta, etc. a quienes se pedía que presentaran los títulos que los acreditaban como propietarios para justificar sus derechos. Se menciona al Capitán Esteban de Anda Altamirano, vecino de la jurisdicción de la Villa de Santa María de los Lagos, labrador y criador de ganados mayores y menores. Voy a buscar las imágenes digitales, talvez encuentre datos adicionales.
Saludos,
BILL FIGUEROA
Gracias Celestino por el fragmento de la dispensa matrimonial de los de Anda Altamirano, es de gran ayuda.
Saludos.
Jorge Luis Ramírez Gómez.
_________________________________________________________________
Messenger cumple 10 años y tiene regalos para ti
www.aniversariomessenger.com.mx
Jaime Holcombe, Diversas Cartas.
Beltrán de la Cueva, sepultada en Zacatecas, h.l. Juan Valadés y Maria Romo. Eugenia de Villalobos (21), originaria de Teocaltiche, h.l. Nicolás de Villalobos (+) e Ysabel Romo.
(Mateo González de Ruvalcaba md 1. Gerónima Morales)
|
(María López, married twice:)
(1) Ags. 9 Oct 1625, Domingo Rebollo) (2) Diego Carrillo de Sandi)
María Rebollo---------------(1/2 sibs)---------- Teresa Carrillo
(md 1. Juan Valadés) (md Nicolás de Villalobos, Teoc. 27 Apr 1664)
Juan Valadés-------------------- 2---------------- Nicolás de Villalobos
(md Maria Romo, Ags 4 Feb 1690) (md Isabel Romo de Vivar)
el pretenso----------------------- 3---------------- la pretensa
* * *
Juan Tiscareño Ruíz de Esparza, nacido por 1631 en Aguascalientes y casado en dos ocasiones, la primera por 1656 con ISABEL ROMO DE VIVAR. Y la segunda el 25 de marzo de 1693 con JUANA SANTA CRUZ.
Juan Tiscareño Ruíz de Esparza, nacido por 1631 en Aguascalientes y c asado en dos ocasiones, la primera por 1656 con ISABEL ROMO DE VIVAR . Y la segunda el 25 de marzo de 1693 con JUANA SANTA CRUZ.
SALVADOR CABRAL VALDES
Salvador,
De donde puedes ver "Jaime Holcombe - Diversas Cartas"? Estan en IGI? Tienes el Batch numero?
Gracias,
Emilie
Port Orchard, Washington, USA
----- Original Message -----
From: cabval@gmail.com
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2009 7:30 AM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Pedro de Anda Altamirano
Jaime Holcombe, Diversas Cartas.
Beltrán de la Cueva, sepultada en Zacatecas, h.l. Juan Valadés y Maria Romo. Eugenia de Villalobos (21), originaria de Teocaltiche, h.l. Nicolás de Villalobos (+) e Ysabel Romo.
DOES ANY BODY KNOWS WHO THE PARENTS WERE FOR ISABEL ROMO DE VIVAR, MARRIED TO JUAN TIZCARENO RUIZ DE ESPARZA IN AGUASCALIENTES IN 1657.
ALGUIEN SABE QUIENES FUERON LOA PADRES DE ISABEL ROMO DE VIVAR CASADA CON JUAN TIZCARENO RUIZ DE ESPARZA EN AGUASCALIENTES EN 1657.
SALUDOS Y GRACIAS.
LUIS MIGUEL GONZALEZ.
________________________________
From: "cabval@gmail.com"
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2009 10:30:12 AM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Pedro de Anda Altamirano
Jaime Holcombe, Diversas Cartas.
Beltrán de la Cueva, sepultada en Zacatecas, h.l. Juan Valadés y Maria Romo. Eugenia de Villalobos (21), originaria de Teocaltiche, h.l. Nicolás de Villalobos (+) e Ysabel Romo.
(Mateo González de Ruvalcaba md 1. Gerónima Morales)
|
(María López, married twice:)
(1) Ags. 9 Oct 1625, Domingo Rebollo) (2) Diego Carrillo de Sandi)
María Rebollo---------------(1/2 sibs)---------- Teresa Carrillo
(md 1. Juan Valadés) (md Nicolás de Villalobos, Teoc. 27 Apr 1664)
Juan Valadés-------------------- 2---------------- Nicolás de Villalobos
(md Maria Romo, Ags 4 Feb 1690) (md Isabel Romo de Vivar)
el pretenso----------------------- 3---------------- la pretensa
* * *
Juan Tiscareño Ruíz de Esparza, nacido por 1631 en Aguascalientes y casado en dos ocasiones, la primera por 1656 con ISABEL ROMO DE VIVAR. Y la segunda el 25 de marzo de 1693 con JUANA SANTA CRUZ.
Juan Tiscareño Ruíz de Esparza, nacido por 1631 en Aguascalientes y c asado en dos ocasiones, la primera por 1656 con ISABEL ROMO DE VIVAR . Y la segunda el 25 de marzo de 1693 con JUANA SANTA CRUZ.
SALVADOR CABRAL VALDES
Primera generación
1. Isabel Romo de Vivar.
Isabel se casó con Juan Tiscareño y Ruiz de Esparza, hijo de Luis Tiscareño y Lorenza Ruiz de Esparza, en 1656. Juan nació en 1631 en Aguascalientes Ags.
Segunda generación
2. Geronimo Romo de Vivar nació en Mexico. Él se casó Margarita Tiscareño y Ruiz de Esparza en 1662.
3. Margarita Tiscareño y Ruiz de Esparza nació el 7 Enero 1642 en Aguascalientes, Aguascalientes, Mexico y tuvo su bautismo infantil el 7 Enero 1642 en Sagrario, Aguascalientes.
Tercera generación
4. Joseph Romo de Vivar nació estimado 1622. Él se casó con Juana de Solis Calahorra en 1644 en Presidio de Conchos Chihuahua.
5. Juana de Solis Calahorra nació estimado 1629.
6. Luis Tiscareño nació en 1598 en Sevilla España. Él se casó Lorenza Ruiz de Esparza el 16 Mayo 1623.
7. Lorenza Ruiz de Esparza nació en 1602 en Aguascalientes Ags..
Cuarta generación
8. Diego Capitan Romo de Vivar tuvo su bautismo infantil el 12 Marzo 1589 en Rieves Toledo. Él se casó Maria Rangel.
9. Maria Rangel.
10. Juan de Solis se casó Maria de Calahorra.
11. Maria de Calahorra.
12. Juan Tiscareño nació estimado 1570 en Aguascalientes, Aguascalientes, Mexico. Él se casó Elvira Marquez.
13. Elvira Marquez.
14. Lope Ruiz de Esparza y Eguinoa se casó Francisca Gabay.
15. Francisca Gabay.
Quinta generación
16. Diego Romo se casó Catalina Perez.
17. Catalina Perez.
18. Juan Alferez Real Rangel de Viezma o Paguero se casó Maria Rosales.
19. Maria Rosales.
28. Lope Ruiz de Esparza nació en Pamplona España. se le sepultó el 14 Agosto 1561 en Aguascalientes. Lope se casó Maria Diez de Eguinoa.
29. Maria Diez de Eguinoa nació en 1573 en Ciudad de Mexico, Mexico.
30. Martin Navarro se casó Petronila Moctezuma.
31. Petronila Moctezuma.
Sexta generación
36. Alonso Conquistador Rangel se casó Luisa de Velázquez y Salasar.
37. Luisa de Velázquez y Salasar.
38. Alonso Conquistador Rangel se imprimió como #36 en la página 2.
39. Luisa de Velázquez y Salasar se imprimió como #37 en la página 2.
62. Diego Arias de Sotelo nació aproximadamente en 1525 en Zamora España. Él se casó Leonor Valderrama y Moctezuma.
63. Leonor Valderrama y Moctezuma.
Séptima generación
124. Arias de Sotelo.
126. Cristobal Conquistador de Valderrama se casó Leonor de Moctezuma.
127. Leonor de Moctezuma.
Octava generación
254. Motecuzoma II Xocoyotzin se casó Teotlalco.
255. Teotlalco.
SALVADOR CABRAL VALDES
Hola Salvador, Joseph Romo de Vivar tuvo su bautismo infántil el 30 de junio de 1625,
en San Felipe, Guanajuato, Méjico, hijo lex. de Capitan Diego Romo de Vivar y Maria Rangel.
Ojala que te ayuda este dato. -Daniel
_________________________________________________________________
Alguien sabe quien son los padres de Maria Romo de Vivar, esposa de Juan Macias Valades, padre de Beltran de la Cueva? Y Isabel Romo de Vivar, esposa de Nicolas Villalobos Campos? madre de Eugenia de Villalobos?
-Daniel
_________________________________________________________________
Juan Tiscareño Ruíz de Esparza, nacido por 1631 en Aguascalientes y casado en dos ocasiones, la primera por 1656 con ISABEL ROMO DE VIVAR. Y la segunda el 25 de marzo de 1693 con JUANA SANTA CRUZ.
de Jaime Holcombe,
Here's a "dispensa" where the María López of two paragraphs ago comes in: (6123) Aguascalientes, 12 Mar 1734. "Dos impedimentos de tercer grado de consanguinidad: Joseph Manuel Macías Valadés (38) viudo de Agueda Beltrán de la Cueva, sepultada en Zacatecas, h.l. Juan Valadés y Maria Romo. Eugenia de Villalobos (21), originaria de Teocaltiche, h.l. Nicolás de Villalobos (+) e Ysabel Romo.
(Mateo González de Ruvalcaba md 1. Gerónima Morales)
|
(María López, married twice:)
(1) Ags. 9 Oct 1625, Domingo Rebollo) (2) Diego Carrillo de Sandi)
María Rebollo---------------(1/2 sibs)---------- Teresa Carrillo
(md 1. Juan Valadés) (md Nicolás de Villalobos, Teoc. 27 Apr 1664)
Juan Valadés-------------------- 2---------------- Nicolás de Villalobos
(md Maria Romo, Ags 4 Feb 1690) (md Isabel Romo de Vivar)
el pretenso----------------------- 3---------------- la pretensa
SALVADOR CABRAL VALDES
Hola, Daniel. Tal vez esto te sirva un poco.
Aguascalientes, Ags. Marzo 12 de 1734. Exp. 82.- Dispensa de tercero grado de consanguinidad por dos lineas.- Joseph Manuel Macias Valadés, español de 38 años de edad, originario y vecino de esta villa, viudo de Agueda Beltrán de la Cueva.Hijo legitimo de Juan Macías Valadés y de Maria Romo; con Eugenea de Villalobos, española de 21 años de edad, originaria y vecina del partido de Teocaltiche y residente en esta villa, hija legitima de Nicoláas de Villalobos, difunto y de Isabel Romo. Declaración del pretenso: Maria Rebollo y Theresa Carrillo, fueron hermanas, de Maria Rebollo, vino Juan Macías Valadés, mi padre, y de Theresa Carrillo, vino Nicolás de Villalobos, padre de la pretensa. Y por la otra parte,
Gerónimo Romo y Francisco Romo, fueron hermanos, de Gerónimo Romo, vino Isabel Romo, madre de mi contrayente, ( y de Francisco Romo, vino Maria Romo), mi madre. Se otorgó la dispensa en la ciudad de Guadalajara, en 23 de marzo de 1734. 16 fojas.
Sagrada Mitra de Guadalajara, parrafo # 1062, pagina 198.
Celestino Villalobos.
--- On Thu, 8/27/09, Daniel M�ndez del Camino wrote:
From: Daniel M�ndez del Camino
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Pedro de Anda Altamirano
To: "Patty Hoyos"
Date: Thursday, August 27, 2009, 12:17 AM
Alguien sabe quien son los padres de Maria Romo de Vivar, esposa de Juan Macias Valades, padre de Beltran de la Cueva? Y Isabel Romo de Vivar, esposa de Nicolas Villalobos Campos? madre de Eugenia de Villalobos?
-Daniel
_________________________________________________________________
Yo tengo como padres de María Romo de Vivar a Francisco Romo de Vivar y Lorenza Delgado. Y los padres de Isabel Romo de Vivar como Jerónimo Romo de Vivar y Margarita Tiscareño de Molina.
Saludos.
Jorge Luis Ramírez Gómez.
_________________________________________________________________
Messenger cumple 10 años y tiene regalos para ti
www.aniversariomessenger.com.mx
Francisco Romo de Vivar Y Lorenza Tiscareño de Molina, posibles padres de Maria Romo.
Ver. Gedcom. Nuestros Ranchos. Sandra Mendoza.
Celestino.
--- On Thu, 8/27/09, Daniel M�ndez del Camino wrote:
From: Daniel M�ndez del Camino
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Pedro de Anda Altamirano
To: "Patty Hoyos"
Date: Thursday, August 27, 2009, 12:17 AM
Alguien sabe quien son los padres de Maria Romo de Vivar, esposa de Juan Macias Valades, padre de Beltran de la Cueva? Y Isabel Romo de Vivar, esposa de Nicolas Villalobos Campos? madre de Eugenia de Villalobos?
-Daniel
_________________________________________________________________
Hola Celestino,
Muchas gracias por los datos de la dispensa otorgada por la Sagrada Mitra al
Capt. Esteban de Anda Altamirano y D. Ines de Pedroza Marmolejo. Encontré
el casamiento en la Villa de San Felipe, Guanajuato, que formaba parte del
Obispado de Michoacán. Se casaron el 18 de junio de 1703 y efectivamente,
como dice la dispensa, eran primos segundos (3er. grado de consanguinidad).
Con esa dispensa saqué muchos otros datos de esa familia.
Que interesante que resultamos primos en enésimo grado por la línea
Tiscareño-Ruiz de Esparza. Como acertadamente lo has dicho, nuestros
ancestros comunes mas cercanos son Luis Tiscareño de Molina y Lorenza Ruiz
de Esparza.
Un saludo,
BILL FIGUEROA
Could it be possible that Juan de Anda (b. ca. 1595) married to Juana Ruiz de Nava be the son (or grandson) of Pedro de Anda and Beatriz de Castaneda, who moved to Sta. Maria de los Lagos (Lagos de Moreno) in 1565. Pedro was still acquiring additional land in December of 1591.
Sera posible qu Juan de Anda (nacido alrededor de 1595), casado con Juana Ruiz de Nava sea el hijo (o nieto) de Pedro de Anda y Beatriz de Castaneda, vecinos de Sta. Maria de Los Lagos, (Lagos de Moreno) a partir de 1565. Pedro seguia adquiriendo tierras en diciembre de 1591.
Jaime R. Alvarado
Jaime,
I have Juan de Anda Altamirano (born ca. 1595) married to Juana Ruiz de Nava
y Guerra (born ca. 1599) as the son of Pedro de Anda Altamirano and Beatriz
González de Castañeda. Seems like we discussed this issue a few months ago,
right?
Bill Figueroa
Bill,
Yes, we discussed this issue. What does not make sense to me after checking the history of Lagos is that if Juan de Anda was born in 1595, and Pedro de Anda and Beatriz Gonzalez de Castañeda were his parents, then Beatriz would have been about 45-50 years old whe she gave birth to Juan,given that Pedro and Beatriz received land in Lagos from Hernado de Martel on March 26 1565. Now, its possible that Juan was born earlier, and that Beatriz was very young when she married Pedro.
Jaime Alvarado,
You're right, Jaime. However, notice that must of the dates are
approximations including the dob of Pedro de Anda Altamirano, Beatriz
González de Castañeda and their children Beatriz, Esteban and Juan de Anda
Altamirano. I've found some estimates way off and this could be the case
here. I'm going to do some checking and will get back to you later.
Bill Figueroa
Jaime,
I checked my notes and can confirm that Pedro de Anda received a land grant in 1565. Basically it reads:
"Una caballeria de tierra río abajo del río de Sauceda en una vuelta que llaman Las Cuevas y mas acá de una mesa, tres cuartos de legua de esta Villa (Sta. María de los Lagos), y una estancia del otro cabo de la dicha mesa junto al río que va de esta villa hacia el poniente dos leguas poco mas o menos de ella, y un solar de casa". This land grant was dated in Guadalajara 27 August 1565."
Eleven years later he received another land grant from Don Gerónimo de Orosco, Presidente, Gobernador y Capitán General del Reino de la Nueva Galicia, de "un sitio de estancia para ganado mayor, tres leguas poco mas o menos de Sta. María de los Lagos, río abajo en la parte donde hace vuelta y están unos albarradones". This second land grant was dated in Guadalajara 17 August 1576.
Neither one mentions his wife Doña Beatriz González de Castañeda. However, I found one land grant dated in Guadalajara 25 May 1602 "otorgada a Beatriz de Castañeda y Margarita Gómez, hermanas". I don't think this is Pedro de Anda's wife, but I wanted to let you know just in case. Who is this Margarita Gómez, anyway?
Considering that Pedro de Anda was already in Nueva Galicia in 1565 and received a land grant from the King of Spain (through the Real Audiencia de Guadalajara), I would venture to say that Pedro de Anda was probably single and about 25 years old in 1565, so a more realistic dob would be ca.1540. Doña Beatriz must have been a lot younger than him, maybe as much as 20 years his junior.
Let me know what you think.
Bill
I'm descended from a woman whose surnames are Anda Altamirano but I
can't find my info at present. Will be back in touch later about it.
Marge:)
On Jan 3, 2008, at 9:12 PM, mormonboy74 wrote:
>
> Does anyone have more info on him or descend from this family. His was
> the son of the proignitor of the anda Surname in los Altos. I dont
> know who his father was though. He was born ca. 1565 en Guadalajara
> and married to Beatriz Gonzales de Castaneda. I dont have any info on
> their marriage. Their son Juan de Anda is my 11th Grt Gf. I think this
> is where it ends but will still try. I was trying to get on PARES
> website but it wont let me for some reason. Does anyone know more of
> the ANDA family? -Daniel
Daniel, I have the same line from Pedro--I decend from Esteban b- abt 1584 and also sister Beatriz b- abt 1572 I did not attach Juan- what is his info and who is he married to- maybe I already have him and have not attached him to Pedro. Unfortunately I could not find any more info on birth or marriage for pedro and Beatriz.
Miguel Gutierrez de la Torre
----- Original Message -----
From: M.Vallazza
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Friday, January 04, 2008 9:41 AM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Pedro de Anda-Altamirano
I'm descended from a woman whose surnames are Anda Altamirano but I
can't find my info at present. Will be back in touch later about it.
Marge:)
On Jan 3, 2008, at 9:12 PM, mormonboy74 wrote:
>
> Does anyone have more info on him or descend from this family. His was
> the son of the proignitor of the anda Surname in los Altos. I dont
> know who his father was though. He was born ca. 1565 en Guadalajara
> and married to Beatriz Gonzales de Castaneda. I dont have any info on
> their marriage. Their son Juan de Anda is my 11th Grt Gf. I think this
> is where it ends but will still try. I was trying to get on PARES
> website but it wont let me for some reason. Does anyone know more of
> the ANDA family? -Daniel
Here is his info: Juan de Anda-Altamirano born ca. 1595 en la villa de Lagos de Moreno de Los Altos murio Marzo 26, 1632 en Lagos. Married Dona Juana Ruiz de Nava y Guerra, nacido ca. 1599 en Lagos hija
lehitima de Alonso Lorenso Guerra, nativo de Oviedo, Asturias, Espana y de Maria Lopes de Nava y Munos, nativa y originaria de Lagos de Moreno. Se Caso en ca. 1611 en Lagos and had at least two kids, theres more but Ive been busy to further resaerch this line who are
Teresa de Anda-Altamirano y Nava and Juan (same last name). Hope this helps. I descend
from Teresa who married in to the Vasquez de Lara family. Hope this helps. Theres a Pedro de Altamirano born in Mexico City ca. 1555 maybe thats him but his wife is different and if that is our pedro he would be the grnadson of the King of Castilla.????
_________________________________________________________________
Watch “Cause Effect,” a show about real people making a real difference.
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Daniel, thanks for the info. I do have it. Juan had at least 7 kids. I decend from Ana b-abt 1612 married to Alonso Fernandez de Rueda b-abt 1605 from Toranzo, Santander Espana.
Miguel Gutierrez de la Torre
----- Original Message -----
From: Daniel Mendez
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Friday, January 04, 2008 7:03 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Pedro de Anda-Altamirano
Here is his info: Juan de Anda-Altamirano born ca. 1595 en la villa de Lagos de Moreno de Los Altos murio Marzo 26, 1632 en Lagos. Married Dona Juana Ruiz de Nava y Guerra, nacido ca. 1599 en Lagos hija
lehitima de Alonso Lorenso Guerra, nativo de Oviedo, Asturias, Espana y de Maria Lopes de Nava y Munos, nativa y originaria de Lagos de Moreno. Se Caso en ca. 1611 en Lagos and had at least two kids, theres more but Ive been busy to further resaerch this line who are
Teresa de Anda-Altamirano y Nava and Juan (same last name). Hope this helps. I descend
from Teresa who married in to the Vasquez de Lara family. Hope this helps. Theres a Pedro de Altamirano born in Mexico City ca. 1555 maybe thats him but his wife is different and if that is our pedro he would be the grnadson of the King of Castilla.????
I found a marriage dispensation record (023 Benito Guzman & Juana Maria Rodarte / Jerez) in the late 1750s which has some information about Diego Pinedo.
.
this is what I have:
~
7th Great Grandfather of Chet Castanon
.
marriage dispensation 4th degree igual between wives
..trunk. Diego Pinedo and Ana Esquivel
Maria Ana Pinedo.......1st degree
Antonia de Avila...........2nd degree
Magdalena Mejia........3rd degree
Encarnacion Pinedo....4th degree
.
trunk.. Diego Pinedo and Gertrudis Castaneda (de Avila)
Antonia Pinedo.............1st degree
Cayetano Rodarte........2nd degree
Diego Rodarte...............3rd degree
Juana Maria Rodarte...4th degree
.
marriage dispensation 4th degree
...trunk.. Diego Pinedo.. Gertrudis de Avila
Antonia Pinedo..........Joseph Pinedo..1st degre
Francisca Rodarte...Maria Pinedo...2nd degree
Ygnacio Felix............Francisca Medrano..3rd degree
Ma. Ricarda Felix.....Modesto Miranda...4th degree
.
marriage dispensation 4th degree igual
....trunk..Diego Pinedo and Ana (Mariana) Esquivel
Joseph Pinedo.............Antonia Pinedo........1st degree
Lasaro Pinedo.........Cayetano Rodarte.....2nd degree
Feliciana Pinedo.......Manuel Rodarte.......3rd degree
Lugardo Gusman .......Rosalia Rodarte.....4th degree
.
Did you see this one too:
Rodrigo de Pinedo m. Maria de Pina
..Mathias Pinedo m. Maria Nicolasa de Abila
....Pedro Tadeo Pinedo (b. 5 Feb 1695, Jerez, Zac ) m. Antonia Gonzales
....Maria Pinedo (b. 3 Nov 1699, Jerez, Zac )
..Antonio Pinedo m. Petra de la Rocha
....Lusia Pinedo m. Marsial Gonzales
....Antonia Gonzales m. Pedro Tadeo Pinedo
Do you see any connection between Diego Pinedo and this Rodrigo de Pinedo?
Do you see any other useful information in this dispensa?
Here's the link:
Mexico, Jalisco, Catholic Church Records, 1590-1979," database with images, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18414-22470-84?cc=1874591 : accessed 4 January 2016), Guadalajara > Diócesis de Guadalajara > Matrimonios 1733-1734 > image 88 of 288; parroquias Católicas, Jalisco (Catholic Church parishes, Jalisco).
.
I have the same information you have..
thanks for sharing
Linda
Hi all--
The marriage year was 1708 exactly. I found the record a few years ago. When I lost a lot of information when my computer crashed and my flash drive back up was stolen in the same week I also lost the exact date. If I remember correctly it was at the very bottom of a page, and just a couple of lines. That is why everyone has missed it. I will go back this weekend and try to find the exact date. I think I may have given that information to Miggy Gutierrez so he may have the exact date.
R A Ricci
THANKS Rick, Raquel and Lisa! Much appreciated. :)
Saludos,
Claudia
www.guadalajaradispensas.com
www.sagradamitra.com
You are very welcome. I have not proven who her father's ( jose de leon) parents are.
Rick A Ricci
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
-----Original Message-----
From: claudiacasillas@gmail.com
Sender: research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 18:16:23
To:
Reply-To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Gertrudis Diaz de Leon
THANKS Rick, Raquel and Lisa! Much appreciated. :)
Saludos,
Claudia
www.guadalajaradispensas.com
www.sagradamitra.com
Hello Rick,
Did you ever find the parents of Jose Diaz de Leon, married to Antonia Delgadillo?
I believe Jose Diaz and Antonia Delgadillo are the parents of my g6, Maria Guadalupe Diaz de Leon, who was married to Francisco Diego Carrillo Lisardi. https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18622-38291-32?cc=1874591&wc…
Their daughter, Maria Estefania Gertrudis Carrillo, married Andres Diaz de Leon-Duron, 25 Mar 1743: https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-15246-26036-84?cc=1804458&wc…
Andres Diaz & Maria Carrillo were at 3o grado and required a dispensation, which I still haven't found. Since the bride's mother is also Diaz de Leon, I assumed the 3o grado was in that line, so their shared great-grandparents would be Juan Diaz and Jacinta de Sotomayor. I couldn't find any records for these individuals to verify this, but I have found some dispensas and other records, which do support it. If you've found his parents, maybe you can confirm my findings? If you haven't, maybe you or someone has some documents which can support them?
I've been brickwalled on my g6s Francisco Diego Carrillo Lisaldi and Maria Guadalupe Diaz de Leon for a while. The other day, I found this, and it knocked some bricks loose. It's a Mar 1777 dispensa for one of Andres Diaz & Maria Carrillo's daughters, Angela Romualda Diaz, for her marriage to Cristobal Delgadillo, with whom she shared consanguinity in 2 lines:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1971-33340-20542-19?cc=1937239…
TRONCO Jacinto Diaz de Leon (m. Sebastiana Gil)
Andres Diaz -G1- Jacinta Diaz
(Dionicia Duron) (Miguel Delgadillo)
Andres Diaz -G2 - Dionicio Delgadillo
(Maria Carrillo) (Manuela Contreras)
Angela Romualda - G3- Cristobal Delgadillo
TRONCO Miguel (Juan) Delgadillo (m. Elvira Martinez de Alarcon)
Miguel Delgadillo -G1- Antonia Delgadillo
(Jacinta Diaz) (Jose Diaz)
Dionicio Delgadillo -G2- Maria Diaz
(Manuela Contreras) (Francisco Carrillo)
Cristobal Delgadillo -G3- Maria Carrillo
(Andres Diaz)
G4- Angela Romualda
I already had Jose Diaz de Leon in my tree, but not his spouse; he's listed in this dispensa for Jose Guadalupe Montanez & Maria Seferina de Silva, 03 Jun 1788: https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18414-104325-89?cc=1874591&w…
Antonio Diaz -hmnos - Jose Diaz
(Teresa Ruiz Lisardi) (Antonia Delgadillo)
Jose Diaz -G2- Maria Diaz
(Lugarda Calderon) (Francisco Carrillo)
Anna Antonia Diaz -G3- Margarita Carrillo
(Juan Montanez) (Juan Esteban de Silva)
Jose Guadalupe -G4- Seferina de Silva
Antonio Diaz de Leon was the son of Juan Diaz de Leon and Jacinta de Sotomayor, here's the IM for his marriage to Teresa Ruiz Lisardi: https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-267-11085-33351-60?cc=1502404&…
Jose Diaz & Antonia Delgadillo had a son, Jose Diaz, who married Maria Dolores Lopez, 04 May 1749, in Cienega de Mata. According to their marriage record, they were at 2o grado and required a dispensation: https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18622-38988-26?cc=1874591&wc…
I still haven't found the dispensa, but Maria Dolores Lopez was the daughter of Felix Lopez, who was the son of Capitan Augustin Lopez de Cerda and Maria de Yslas y Sotomayor; this Maria de Yslas was the daughter of Andres Martin Camacho and Maria de Yslas y Moctezuma, who were also the parents of Jacinta Martin de Sotomayor, wife of Juan Diaz de Leon-Ortega.
Thus, Jose Diaz de Leon, who was married to Maria Antonia Delgadillo-Martinez de Alarcon, was the son of Juan Diaz de Leon and Jacinta de Sotomayor. He might have been born in San Felipe, Guanajuato, where my g7 Jacinto Diaz was born, in 1652. Andres Diaz was born there a year later, I have no other baptismal records for this family, so I don't know where Juan and Jacinta went from there.
Do your records reflect this?
And I'm lost on Francisco Diego Carrillo Lisardi; their marriage record said they did their informaciones in 2 parishes - Cienega de Mata and Pinos, where they both lived, on Real de Angeles. I've searched both data bases at the LDS site, and I've still not found them. She was probably born in Nochistlan, around 1708. They both lived on Real de Angeles, in Pinos, for some time before getting married. I have them having a daughter born before their marriage date - on whose baptism document lists her as "legitima." Elena Josepha Carrillo was baptized 04 Mar 1726, on Angeles in Pinos: https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-15233-34109-44?cc=1804458&wc…
Another daughter, Maria Trinidad, married Juan Navarro, 23 Apr 1739, in Pinos, also on Angeles; if she was born legitimate, she would've been 10 years old. Possible but not probable,
especially since she gave birth a year later: https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-15246-26038-82?cc=1804458&wc…
"Carrillo Lisardi" appeared on the marriage document for one of their sons, Jose Antonio,https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/V5FZ-VZJ
and in the lower right panel: https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-15246-29272-2?cc=1804458&wc=…
So I'm wondering how he's linked to that dynasty.
Thanks for any assistance in advance. And thank all of you for establishing the parentesco of Antonia Delgadillo-Martinez de Alarcon: I was able to locate lots of relevant documents to establish parentesco. I may have some questions regarding the Martinez de Alarcon and associated lines, but I'll save those for another time.
Un cordial saludo, su primo
Manny Diez Hermosillo
http://www.nuestrosranchos.org/jrefugioghermosillo
Congratulations Manny,
I have spent many hours looking for this info and never confirmed it. I suspected but had no luck. I was right in identifying his father but never could confirm it because I thought he was from the first marriage.
I thought I was wrong and you were right when I first read your email but a couple of hours later as I was taking a shower I thought about why I had originally placed him with the first wife and came up the idea that this was another time where a dispensation incorrectly places the second wife as the mother. Many years ago I had an ancestor who was incorrectly placed by many genealogist because of faulty record. When she married her stepfather was listed as her father. Her father had died when she was young and had left another child also. It was clear that after going over all the available data that she was the biological daughter of the first husband, a Martin dell Campo, and not of her mothers second husband who had raised her. Many genealogist had doubts when I first pointed this out but more data became available confirming my information.
I went to bed thinking that you were probably right but that we just needed to check our info just to make sure. Your information does confirm who his father is. We just have to look at any other data that may place him as the biological son of the first wife. Just to make sure.
I looked over my data and I feel that you are indeed correct, that he descends from the second wife. Again I say CONGRATULATIONS, you did hit the jackpot.
The diaz de Leon family was all over the place. If I remember correctly, they originally came from Aguascalientes with some records in Zacatecas, Jalostotitlan , Guanajuato, with some moving back to Aguascalientes. There was even a branch that moved from Aguascalientes to Durango and then followed other family members to Nochistlan Zacatecas.
Thank you very much for this info
Your primo,
Rick A Ricci
PS I will look into Your Francisco Diego Carillo Lizardi line soon to help you out. Right now I am little tied up unraveling and gathering Villasenor-Lomellini lines. I will also go back and get info on the martinez alarcon lines for you when you are ready.
Thanks again
Thanks, I just need to find that dispensa for Andres Diaz and Maria Carrillo - for all I know, the 3o grado might have been through the other lines! I'm still digging for it.
Up to now, I haven't done any deep research on my Diaz de Leon lines, I have no idea who the genearca in Nueva Galicia was. I have my line starting in Pinos in the early to mid-1600s, and then move around, as you mentioned. Juan Diaz and Francisca Ortega are at the top of my tree, and the only mention I have of them is in Juan Diaz & Jacinta Sotomayor's 1648 IM, in Pinos:
I. Juan Diaz de Leon, m. Francisca de Ortega
II. Juan Diaz de Leon, m. Jacinta de Sotomayor; IM Aug 1648, Pinos: https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-15245-22471-68?cc=1804458&wc…
III. Jacinto Diaz de Leon, m. Sebastiana Gil de la Mancha; m. 25 Feb 1675, Aguascalientes, PN: https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-266-12446-30237-65?cc=1502404&…
IV. Andres Diaz de Leon, m. Dionicia Duron Gutierrez; Dispensa, 01 Apr 1728, Pinos. Source: Sagrada Mitra de Guadalajara Expedientes…, p. 266/1460
V. Andres Diaz de Leon, m. Maria Estefania Carrillo m. 25 Mar 1743, Pinos. PN: https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-15246-26036-84?cc=1804458&wc…
VI. Juana Dorothea Diaz de Leon, m. Vicente Gonzalez de Hermosillo, m. Jan 1764, Pinos, IM: https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-15243-320-34?cc=1804458&wc=M…
Questions regarding the Delgadillo & Martinez de Alarcon lines:
Diego Delgadillo, m. Ysabel Calderon Orosco; do you have their parentesco? Would this Diego Delgadillo be descended from Juan de Padilla y Delgadillo & Petrona de Vaulus y Siordia?
Juan Delgadillo, m. Maria Concepcion Gonzalez de Yslas Renteria. Is she a child of Bernardino de Yslas & Mariana de Sandoval? The timelines don't seem to fit and I'm having problems tracking her. She is mentioned in "Sagrada Mitra Expedientes," in a dispensa for Onofre Joseph de Herrera & Manuela Gonzalez. She had a sister named Elvira de Yslas, who had a son named Salvador Gonzalez, who was married to Rosa de Anda Altamirano:
<< Jalostotitlán. Jal. Marzo 28 de 1731. Exp. 102 - Dispensa de cuarto con tercero grado de consanguinidad. - Onofre Joseph de Herrera, vecino de la feligresía de Tepatitlán. español de 31 años de edad, hijo legítimo de Gerónimo de Herrera, difunto y de Augustina Rosa Delgadillo: con Manuela González, española de 26 años de edad, vecina de este pueblo de Xalostotitlán. hija legítima de Salvador González y de Doña Rosa de Anda Altamirano, difuntos, vecinos que fueron del pueblo de Teocaltiche. Declaración de Juan González, español de 52 años de edad, hermano de la pretensa: Doña María de la Concepción Islas, bisabuela del pretenso, y Doña Elvira de Islas, abuela de la pretensa, fueron hermanas que es primer grado, y de Doña María Concepción, procedió Diego Delgadillo, abuelo del pretenso, y de Doña Elvira, procedió Salvador González, padre de la pretensa, y estos fueron primos hermanos que es segundo grado. Y de Diego Delgadillo, procedió Augustina Rosa Delgadillo, madre del pretenso, y de Salvador González, procedió Doña Manuela González, pretensa, y éstas son primas segundas que es tercero grado. Se otorgó la dispensa en la Ciudad de Guadalajara. en 5 de abnl de 1731. 19fojas. Source: Sagrada Mitra de Guadalajara. Rollo 167990 O A H 2352 pt. 4. Matrimonios Hojas Suelus. 1709-1746. 28 de marzo de 1731 p. 195/1050 >>
And finally, Miguel Martinez de Alarcon; was he a peninsular? That's a whole new surname for me! I already had the others in my lines. Time to start digging.
Thanks! And I'm loving your recent posts on Lomelin/Lomellini - I don't have them in my lines (yet), and they have such a colorful history. Keep up the great work, it's inspirational as well as informative!
Saludos,
Manny Diez Hermosillo
http://www.nuestrosranchos.org/jrefugioghermosillo
First. Juan Delgadilo is the son of Diego Delgadillo and Isabel Calderon. According to Mary Lou Montagna, Maria de la Concepcion de Yslas is the daughter of Francisco Gonzalez Martinez. Other genealogist have stated that she is the daughter of Bernardino de Yslas. Unless proven otherwise, I would go with Mary Lou's statement.
Second Agustina Rosa Delgadillo is also known as Secundina (Secuntina) de la Rosa Delgadillo. She was married on 28jul1692 in Nochistlan, Zacatecas.
Third, I don't have diego Delgadillos parents
Fourth I don't know Miguel Martnez de Alarcons parents. I believe that he is a peninsular.
I will keep looking and I will inform you if I find new data.
Many thanks for the appreciative comments,
Rick A Ricci
Hi Manny
I just found out that the Martinez de Alarcon family sometimes used a different variation of the name and that many were known as Ruiz de Alarcon. Hopefully this information can help us go further back on the Miguel Martinez Alarcon and Josefa Bautista de Rubalcava line.
From a couple of descriptions I found of a possible relative of Miguel Martinez de Alarcon :
"Juan Ruiz de Alarcon y Mendoza (1581-1639). Mexico. Nacio en Mexico y vivio gran parte de su vida en Espana. Era hijo de Pedro Ruiz de Alarcon y Leonor de Mendoza, ambos con antepasados de la nobleza. Estudio abogacia en la Real y Pontificia Universidad de la Ciudad de Mexico y a comienzos del siglo xvii viajo a Espana donde obtuvo el titulo de bachiller de canones en la Universidad de Salamanca. Ejercio como abogado en Sevilla (1606) y regreso a Mexico a terminar sus estudios de leyes en 1608. En 1614 volvio otra vez a Espana y trabajo como relator del Consejo de Indias. Era deforme (jorobado de pecho y espalda) por lo que fue objeto de numerosas burlas de escritores contemporaneos como Francisco de Quevedo, que lo llamaba corcovilla, Felix Lope de Vega y Pedro Calderon de la Barca."
From another source "Alarcón was born in Mexico, but lived many years in Spain. This dual citizenship allowed him to be famous as the first Mexican writer known outside his own country while at the same time being accepted as one of the elite group of writers who powered the Siglo de oro literary expression in Spain."
Pedro Ruiz de Alarcon had four sons.
Another posting:
"Ruiz de Alarcón is a Spanish noble name. The name Alarcón was first given to Ferrán Martínez de Ceballos by Alfonso VIII of Castile after the former had successfully driven the Moors from the fortress of Alarcón near Cuenca in 1177. His son's name was Ruí de Alarcón and later, in the thirteenth century, his descendants took the name Ruíz de Alarcón to distinguish themselves from other branches of the Alarcón family. The most famous member of the Ruiz de Alarcón family is the 17th century playwright Juan Ruiz de Alarcón.[1] Juan's brother Hernando Ruíz de Alarcón y Mendoza, who was a priest in Taxco, is known for having written a treatise documenting the non-Christian religious practices of the Nahua Indians of central Mexico."
Leonor Mendoza y Mendoza provides another possible link to Isabela Mendoza,
Happy new year primo
R.A.Ricci
Hello R.A. Ricci and the rest of primos
There may be some relation between the Martínez de Alarcón and the Ruíz de Alarcón but if that´s true the connection must be very far away in time because I´ve done some research regarding the Ruíz de Alarcón and so far I haven´t seen any Martínez de Alarcón appearing in this family history.
The name Alarcón effectively first appears in 1177 when Fernán Martínez de Ceballos wins the fortress of Alarcón from the moors and is Awarded "señorío" over that fortress by Alfonso VIII, but he was already a member of high nobility because he was the son of Martín Fernández de Ceballos y Armengol, descendant of the Counts of Armengol , and grandson of García Ordoñez Count of Cabra and Elvira de Castilla.
Fernán Martínez de Ceballos Señor de Alarcón married his niece Elvira Ruíz Gutiérrez de Ceballos and they had a son named Rodrigo Fernández de Alarcón whose great great grandson was Martín Ruíz de alarcón 2nd Sr. de Valverde and Talayuelas who married around 1350 Francisca Fernández de Villodre and theay had three sons who originated some famous families :
Álvaro Ruíz de alarcón originated the line of the "Señores de Almodóvar"
Fernán Ruíz de alarcón, originated the line of the "Señores de Huelmecez"
Garcí Ruíz de Alarcón, originated initially the line of the "Señores de Buenache", and from this last line come the lines of the "Counts of Vallsiciliana",the line of the "Counts of Valverde",the line of the "Alarcones de Carrión", the line of the "Virreyes Ruíz de Velasco", and the line of the playwriter "Juan Ruíz de Alarcón".
This line of Garcí Ruíz de Alarcón is very interesting because it originated many famous families, for instance the family of the Virreyes Luis de Velasco (father and son)whose family connected with the Viveros-Cano-Moctezumas and ultimately with the noble House of Lancaster; it is also interesting because there´s information that the virreyes and almost all of this line had Jew blood but somehow they managed to hide it so succsefully that they obtained the titles of Virreyes of New Spain.
To Carlos Peredo
Thank you for the information. Just as the line that descended from Rui de Alarcon took the name Ruiz de Alarcon, I believe that some of the other branches descended from Martin de Alarcon and took the last name Martinez de Alarcon. This was easy to do as they turned their ancestors first name Martin into the last name Martinez. Martin and Rui were common names in this family.
As to the jewish blood in the Velasco family, this was not always a secret as they admitted to be descendants of the house of David. Since this was considered to be Mary's family then they were allowed to state that they came from old Christian families. One of the kings addressed this issue with a statement. I believe that a church official also made a statement concerning the descent from Mary's family, the house of David. There is a long line that shows this Spanish jewish family going all the way back to the time of Mary showing them to be from the house that claimed descent from David.
I agree with you that at this time we do not know if and where Miguel Martinez de Alarcon hooks up with these Ruiz de Alarcon, or with the other Martinez de Alarcon that are distant cousins of the Ruiz de Alarcon. I have not been successful in finding out who his parents are.
I was surprised to find more Mendozas in Mexico that could possibly help in the search for Isabel Hurtado de Mendozas parents. The Mendozas in the ruiz de Alarcon line had a daughter named Isabel Mendoza but I have not found any information on her yet as no husband is identified. As to Juan Ruiz de Alarcons ancestry, Leonor descended from the Mendoza through both parents as she was Leonor Mendoza y Mendoza.
Thanks again Carlos
R.A.Ricci
Hi Rick,
I'm sorry I hadn't noticed your post earlier. I've had Miguel Martinez de Alarcon & Josepha Baptista on my backburner. I do have some of their children being confirmed 16 May 1634, when Bishop Leonel Cervantes visited Teocaltiche:
Ysabel (padrino Lorenzo Alvarez)
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-19046-22645-3?cc=1874591&wc=…
Mariana ( m. Petronila de Siordia)
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-19046-22692-24?cc=1874591&wc…
Miguel (p. Lazaro Martin)
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-19046-22692-24?cc=1874591&wc…
Here's their son, Miguel Martinez de Alarcon, as notario nombrado on the IM for Juan Estrada & Margarita Ortega, 16 Mar 1659, Nochistlan (Jhoan Delgadillo-Calderon, Juan Yrungaray and Juan Rodriguez de Frias-Amaya are testigos):
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18564-63155-17?cc=1874591&wc…
On the marriage record for Joseph Martinez de Alarcon & Petrona de Yslas Sandoval, 02 Feb 1668 Nochistlan, it names Miguel as a testigo, and he's listed as "Licenciado Miguel Martinez de Alarcon Presbitero, ermano del desposado"
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-15188-1283-36?cc=1804458&wc=…
Would you know if Petrona de Yslas Sandova (married Joseph Martinez) was a daughter of DIego Gonzalez de Yslas and Cecilia Vasquez? The surnames correspond, and I know she's not daughter of his brother, Bernardino, since that one married Diego Delgadillo.
Gracias y saludos,
Manny Diez Hermosillo
Hi Rick,
In case you don't already have it, here's the 10 Jan 1729 dispensa for Joseph Diaz de Leon and Maria Dolores Lopez de la Cerda. This confirms that Joseph Diaz de Leon (m. Antonia Delgadillo) was the son of Juan Diaz de Leon and Jacinta Martinez de Sotomayor:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9392-X3F6-7?i=343&wc=12512716&c…
As for the ancestry of Miguel Martinez de Alarcon, I've been looking for the first orders of his son, Miguel, which hopefully has a limpieza de sangre, but I haven't been able to locate it.
Saludos,
Manny Diez Hermosillo
Hello Manny,
I did not have the 10 Jan 1729 dispensa for Joseph Diaz de Leon and Maria Dolores Lopez de la Cerda that confirms that Joseph Diaz de Leon (m. Antonia Delgadillo) was the son of Juan Diaz de Leon and Jacinta Martinez de Sotomayor:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9392-X3F6-7?i=343&wc=12512716&c…
Thank you very much for providing this final confirmation,
Rick A. Ricci
P..S. Please send me your email so that I may keep you up to date on other branches that we share that I have been working on.
Hola primos,
I found Juan Diaz de Leon registering some mines in the San Luis Potosi registry. The mines were located in Ntra Señora de la Concepcion de Sierra de Pinos, and he mentions some other miners in the area (Jorge Leal, Diego Delgado, amongst others).
Most interesting is the date: 01 Mar 1604. We had him born around 1589 (re: IM for Gines Carrion m. Antonia Perez Mojica 22 Feb 1651), but that would make him age 15, when these were registered. So, he was either born earlier than we thought, or this is his father?
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:33SQ-G58X-S7DY?mode=g&i=15&wc=M…
Saludos,
Manny DIez Hermosillo
1691-1736 Image # is 163 in Nochistlan, right hand side 3rd down.
Gertudis is the daughter of. Of jose diaz de Leon and maria antonia delgadillo. Maria Antonia went by numerous last names including martinez de Alarcon and Gonzalez de Islas besides Delgadillo. I have confirmed that they are all the same person. Maria Antonia Delgadillo is the daughter of Juan Delgadillo and elvira Martinez de alarcon. Juan delgadillo son of juan delgadillo and maria concepcion de islas o gonzalez de Islas Renteria. Elvira is the daughter of Miguel Martinez Alarcon and Josefa Bautista de Rubalcava. The elder juan is the son of Diego delgadillo and Isabel Calderon Orosco. Josefa is the daughjter of Matheo Runbalcava and Geronima Morales
I descend from ana's sister and brother. A friend of mine descends from ana's other marriage.
Rick A Ricci
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
-----Original Message-----
From: claudiacasillas@gmail.com
Sender: research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 21:08:45
To:
Reply-To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Gertrudis Díaz de León (m
. Juan Álvarez-Tostado)
Hi all--
Does anyone know who the parents of Gertrudis Díaz de León are? She married Juan Álvarez-Tostado circa 1708 either in Teocaltiche or Nochistlan. I am her descendent via her daughter Ana Álvarez-Tostado who married Miguel Antonio Márquez de los Olivos in 1751, Jalostotitlan.
Any leads will be appreciated. Thanks!
Claudia, one source for the above info is the 19 de enero de 1727
dispensation for mg of Onofre Ruiz and Maria Manuela Alvarez (see pg 45,
last para. *Gen. de Nochistlan...*), where Gertrudis Diaz is laisted as
hija de Anotina Delgadillo, hija de Juan Delgadillo.
Raquel
RESEARCHING ANY THING ON JUAN MARTIN TORRES , I CAME ACROSS ONE OF HIS DAUGHTERS MARIA ANGEL.THE RECORD IS IN ENCARNCION DE DIAZ JALISCO BAUTISMOS 1778-1802 IMAGE 132. SHE WAS BAPTIZED 2 NOV 1783.
Hi,
It says San Antonio which I believe is the same rancho that is near my hometown of Bajio de San Jose, Jalisco: http://mexico.pueblosamerica.com/i/san-antonio-308/.
Best regards,
Austin Perez
...the full name of this rancho at the time of Maria Angel's baptism was San Antonio de Villalobos.
Austin
Some details of the mother of Padre Miguel HIDALGO...
! Birth...nacio en Jururemba, Michoacan en 1731 said the Enciclopedia
de Mexico, Tomo VI, page 3114. It also said that she was an espanola,
born 1731
married 15/aug/1750
died 9/apr/1762
________________________________
From: research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org on behalf of patricia burton
Sent: Mon 2/23/2009 8:22 PM
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Ana Maria GALLAGA, mother of Padre Miguel HIDALGO
Some details of the mother of Padre Miguel HIDALGO...
! Birth...nacio en Jururemba, Michoacan en 1731 said the Enciclopedia
de Mexico, Tomo VI, page 3114. It also said that she was an espanola,
hija de padre y madre espanolas.
Marriage...en 1750 con Cristobal HIDALGO Y Costilla said the
Enciclopedia de Mexico.
Death...murio en la hacienda de Corralejo, Gto., en 1762, said the
Enciclopedia de Mexico.
En Mexico, el apellido GALLAGA tuvo especial importancia, ya que le
correspondia al Cura Hidalgo, por su linea materna.
Los padres, de Ana Maria, tuvieron unicamente una hija. Ella
originaria del rancho de Jururemba, de donde fue llevada al pueblo
de Huaniquero, hoy Villa Morelos, recibiendo alli las aguas del
bautismo.**
Habiendo quedado huerfana, Ana Maria, la recogieron sus abuelos
maternos, y por muerte de estas su tio carnal Don Manuel Mateo
GALLAGA Mandarte, Administrador del rancho de San Vicente del Cano,
perteneciente a la Hacienda de San Diego del Corralejo.**
La senora Ana Maria, celebro esponsales con Don Cristobal HIDALGO Y
Costilla. Ellos procrearon entre otros hijos a Don Miguel HIDALGO y
Costilla, parroco de Dolores, e iniciador de la Independencia de
Mexico.**
**BLASONES Y APELLIDOS
--- On Mon, 2/23/09, Ricci, Richard wrote:
> From: Ricci, Richard
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Luis LOMELINI and OLMOS
> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> Date: Monday, February 23, 2009, 9:54 AM
> The descent from Jn carlo D. Lomelin, if I remember
> correctly is that his daughter from Maria Benavides Ramos is
> named maria lomelin.
> Maria Lomelin and Nicolas perez Contreras have a child by
> the name of juana contreras who married Pedro Gallaga
> Mandarte. They were the parents of Juan Fernando Gallaga
> Mandarte the maternal grandfather of miguel hidalgo
> costilla's mother.
> From: research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org on behalf
> of Ricci, Richard
> Sent: Mon 2/23/2009 8:39 AM
> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Luis LOMELINI and OLMOS
>
>
>
> Joseph (Guiseppe) Luis Lomelin, brother to Jn.Carlo Domingo
> Lomelin, was married Maria del Olmo
> Joseph Luis Lomelin and Maria del Olmo were the parents of
> Maria Lomelin del Olmo
> Maria Lomelin del Olmo and Juan de Viilasenor Reus y Patino
> Peirerea were the parents of Pedro Viilasenor
> Just recently somone posted a genealogy showing the
> relationship among the leaders of the revolution. You can
> follow the rest of the line there to Miguel Hidalgo
> Costilla. There are lots of genealogies, some from well
> known genealogist, purporting to show his family tree. They
> have some mistakes but there is a reason for those mistakes
> because of circumstances. I have the documentation showing
> how it was an uncle or grandparent raising the child due to
> early deaths.
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org on behalf
> of patricia burton
> Sent: Mon 2/23/2009 5:06 AM
> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Luis LOMELINI and OLMOS
>
>
>
> To Richard R.--
>
> My husband has OLMOS in his family tree. His OLMOS are
> from the Ayo el Chico area. Can you be more specific with
> your Luis LOMELINI and OLMOS details?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Sincerely,
> Patricia BURTON
> San Diego, Ca.
>
>
> --- On Sun, 2/22/09, Ricci, Richard
> wrote:
>
> > From: Ricci, Richard
> > Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Luis LOMELINI???
> > To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> > Date: Sunday, February 22, 2009, 7:47 PM
> > the lomelin olmos line descends from luis lomelin and
> not
> > carlos
> >
> > ________________________________
> >
> > From: research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org on
> behalf
> > of patricia burton
> > Sent: Sun 2/22/2009 7:36 PM
> > To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> > Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Luis LOMELINI???
> >
> >
> >
> > To Richard R.--
> >
> > My husband comes from the LOMELI/LOMELIN/ LOMELINI
> line. I
> > have worked on part of the lines of Miguel HIDALGO,
> namely
> > the ones that come from the GALLAGA part of the
> family.
> > Would you please give some details on this brother of
> Carlos
> > LOMELINI and how he fits into the Padre Miguel HIDALGO
> > family tree? Many thanks.
> >
> > Sincerely,
> > Patricia BURTON
> > San Diego, Ca.
> >
> >
> > --- On Sat, 2/21/09, Ricci, Richard
> > wrote:
> >
> > > From: Ricci, Richard
> > > Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Thank You
> > > To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> > > Date: Saturday, February 21, 2009, 2:18 PM
> > > My notes have him as Carlos' brother. He is
> also
> > the
> > > ancestor of one of miguel Hidalgos lines. Miguel
> > Hidalgo
> > > Costilla descends from both brothers. The
> > Lomelin's from
> > > Puebla and Mexico City descend from Luis. Back
> then
> > the
> > > records show lomelin. Before that it is Lomellini
> or
> > > lomelini. It wasn't until later that people
> > started
> > > dropping the n. In Portugal the lomelin line
> added an
> > o to
> > > make Lomelino. And the stories are true about one
> > branch
> > > leaving Genoa , going to Spain and cornering the
> slave
> > trade
> > > there. There rest of the family was into more
> > legitimate
> > > businesses.
> > > There is a famous book that uses the Lomelini as
> the
> > main
> > > characters in the book. I have own a copy of the
> book
> > but I
> > > lent it to my niece and she hasn't returned
> it
> > yet. I
> > > have not read it because she was visiting when it
> > arrived
> > > and immediately asked to borrow it.
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > >
> > > From: research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> on
> > behalf
> > > of Daniel M?ndez del Camino
> > > Sent: Fri 2/20/2009 11:46 PM
> > > To: Patty Hoyos
> > > Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Thank You
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > wHAT INFO DO OU HAVE ON LUíS LOMELINI? I HAVE
> NEVER
> > HEARD
> > > OF HIM JUST CARLO. -tHANKS. dANIEL
> > >
> >
> _________________________________________________________________
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Besides hidalgos mother being raised by grandparents and uncles which screwed up some peoples genealogies there is another mixup that was harder to catch on the villasenor side because a distinguished genealogist
did not get it exactly right and a lot of people copied his work. This genealogy (with a couple of mistakes) was even submitted to the genealogical society in Mexico city. A marriage dispensation clarifies everything and now there is no dispute. Not everyone knows about the clarification and I see the mistaken genealogy posted on the internet or in books. Some people have the correct genealogy. I believe that chart of the genealogy of the freedom fighters has the correct genealogy. From the dispensation and what I had put together of his mother's side which are some of the families of nuestros ranchos members, I have pieced his tree together and I will post it soon.
R.A.Ricci
Chantal Laurent y Martinez del Campo
I am indirectly related to Miguel Hidalgo through the Villasenor Lomelins. According to the Memorias de la Academia Mexicana de Genealogia, his mother Ana Maria Gallaga Mandarte y Villasenor was the daughter of Juan Pedro de Alcantara Gallaga Mandarte y Mora with Joaquina de Villasenor Lomelin. Joaquina was the daughter of Juan Miguel de Villasenor Lomelin and Elena Cortes Enriquez de Silva. I do not know her parentage...Juan Miguel was the son of Pedro Villasenor Lomelin and Ines Fernandez de Rincon. This last Pedro was the son of Juan de Villasenor Patino and Maria Lomelin del Olmo (again, no parentage for her - can anyone help?) Juan de Villasenor Patino was the son of Juan de Villasenor Gasca and Maria Patino and grandson of Francisco de Villasenor and Leonisia de Gasca Reus.
Another grandson of the last couple, Jose de Villasenor, maried Bernarda de Coria Lomelin, maybe daughter of Catalina Lomelin. Does anybody have any information on the latter?
Thanks
Hi, Im Daniel Méndez del Camino, I have only started to research this somewhat since I found out Hidalgo's Lomelini connection. I am fascintated by alteño genealogy, how many people we come from and so many well-known and well-researched families! So far you have the line correct as far as I see it, I was also told, Hidalgo has a total of two Lomelini connections, two maternally "de los Villaseñor" which explains the compound surname Villaseñor y Lomelini. but also on his Gallaga y Mandarte he was said to come from Carlo's daughter María di Lomelini who married a Gallaga y Mandarte. Maybe Someone know about this line? I havent really followed it. With the original Lomelini there were two Lomelini cousins who married two Villaseñor, but havent really looked at. Hope this somewhat helps for now! Keep me posted!
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Hello Maria Lomelin y del Olmo was the daughter of Joseph Luis Lomelin and Maria del Olmo. Jose Luis Lomelin was a brother of Jn Carlo Domingo Lomelin, the ancestor of the lomeli of zacatecas, jalisco
I have elena cortes enriquez de silva parents, grandparents and one set of her greatgrandparents but I have information that are leading me to the other great grandparents as soon as I work on those I will release that info
Ricci
________________________________
From: research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org on behalf of chantal51
Sent: Mon 3/16/2009 8:37 PM
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Miguel Hidalgo's ascendance
Chantal Laurent y Martinez del Campo
I am indirectly related to Miguel Hidalgo through the Villasenor Lomelins. According to the Memorias de la Academia Mexicana de Genealogia, his mother Ana Maria Gallaga Mandarte y Villasenor was the daughter of Juan Pedro de Alcantara Gallaga Mandarte y Mora with Joaquina de Villasenor Lomelin. Joaquina was the daughter of Juan Miguel de Villasenor Lomelin and Elena Cortes Enriquez de Silva. I do not know her parentage...Juan Miguel was the son of Pedro Villasenor Lomelin and Ines Fernandez de Rincon. This last Pedro was the son of Juan de Villasenor Patino and Maria Lomelin del Olmo (again, no parentage for her - can anyone help?) Juan de Villasenor Patino was the son of Juan de Villasenor Gasca and Maria Patino and grandson of Francisco de Villasenor and Leonisia de Gasca Reus.
Another grandson of the last couple, Jose de Villasenor, maried Bernarda de Coria Lomelin, maybe daughter of Catalina Lomelin. Does anybody have any information on the latter?
Thanks
what time frame are you talking about and what state in Mexico?
Some of my research in Jalisco includes these surnames (Villasenor) but different combinations so I'm interested in the time frame.
Linda in Everett
--- On Mon, 3/16/09, chantal51 wrote:
From: chantal51
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Miguel Hidalgo's ascendance
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Date: Monday, March 16, 2009, 8:37 PM
Chantal Laurent y Martinez del Campo
I am indirectly related to Miguel Hidalgo through the Villasenor Lomelins.
According to the Memorias de la Academia Mexicana de Genealogia, his mother Ana
Maria Gallaga Mandarte y Villasenor was the daughter of Juan Pedro de Alcantara
Gallaga Mandarte y Mora with Joaquina de Villasenor Lomelin. Joaquina was the
daughter of Juan Miguel de Villasenor Lomelin and Elena Cortes Enriquez de
Silva. I do not know her parentage...Juan Miguel was the son of Pedro
Villasenor Lomelin and Ines Fernandez de Rincon. This last Pedro was the son of
Juan de Villasenor Patino and Maria Lomelin del Olmo (again, no parentage for
her - can anyone help?) Juan de Villasenor Patino was the son of Juan de
Villasenor Gasca and Maria Patino and grandson of Francisco de Villasenor and
Leonisia de Gasca Reus.
Another grandson of the last couple, Jose de Villasenor, maried Bernarda de
Coria Lomelin, maybe daughter of Catalina Lomelin. Does anybody have any
information on the latter?
Thanks
Saturday, July 25, 2009
Dear Daniel-
"Hidalgo was the first leader in the Western hemisphere to abolish slavery and distribute land to the people," stated Liz Haskell of Santa Cruz.
This statement and others similar are what I found when checking on the Internet. I had heard Padre Miguel Hidalgo's story before and as he is related to my husband through the GALLAGA name, I am always looking for more information.
Sincerely,
Patricia Burton
San Diego, Ca.
--- On Sat, 7/25/09, Daniel M�ndez del Camino wrote:
> From: Daniel M�ndez del Camino
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Surnames in the 1600s
> To: "Patty Hoyos"
> Date: Saturday, July 25, 2009, 12:14 PM
>
>
> Hi Bill, I putting this out there, my Latin American
> Studies teacher said that slave trade ened in Colonial
> Spanish America when the country gained independence but
> within each indiviadiual country slavery still exsisted, for
> instance Mexico didnt abolish (legally) slavery until 1920
> at the end of the Revolution. Before the Revolution of 1910
> there are no known articles or laws saying you can legally
> hold slaves, only that freed slaves remain free forever. The
> Constitution of 1917 (I think) was the one that talked about
> slavery. This was about 2 years ago I was taught so not sure
> if its true or not. She was an excellent teacher though.
> -Daniel Camino
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get 5 GB of storage with Windows Live Hotmail.
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Patricia Burton:
My brother in law is related to the Gallaga name of Padre Miguel Hidalgo, he
has asked me to help him find something on this line. I wonder if you can
help me or share the Gallaga side.
I am related to the other side.
Sylvia
On Sat, Jul 25, 2009 at 8:58 PM, wrote:
>
> Saturday, July 25, 2009
>
> Dear Daniel-
>
> "Hidalgo was the first leader in the Western hemisphere to abolish slavery
> and distribute land to the people," stated Liz Haskell of Santa Cruz.
>
> This statement and others similar are what I found when checking on the
> Internet. I had heard Padre Miguel Hidalgo's story before and as he is
> related to my husband through the GALLAGA name, I am always looking for more
> information.
>
> Sincerely,
> Patricia Burton
> San Diego, Ca.
>
>
>
> --- On Sat, 7/25/09, Daniel M�ndez del Camino
> wrote:
>
> > From: Daniel M�ndez del Camino
> > Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Surnames in the 1600s
> > To: "Patty Hoyos"
> > Date: Saturday, July 25, 2009, 12:14 PM
> >
> >
> > Hi Bill, I putting this out there, my Latin American
> > Studies teacher said that slave trade ened in Colonial
> > Spanish America when the country gained independence but
> > within each indiviadiual country slavery still exsisted, for
> > instance Mexico didnt abolish (legally) slavery until 1920
> > at the end of the Revolution. Before the Revolution of 1910
> > there are no known articles or laws saying you can legally
> > hold slaves, only that freed slaves remain free forever. The
> > Constitution of 1917 (I think) was the one that talked about
> > slavery. This was about 2 years ago I was taught so not sure
> > if its true or not. She was an excellent teacher though.
> > -Daniel Camino
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Get 5 GB of storage with Windows Live Hotmail.
> >
> http://windowslive.com/Explore/Hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_5g…
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> >
> > To change your subscription, log on to:
> > http://www.nuestrosranchos.org
> >
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>
>
Hi Sylvia, its Daniel Camino, Ill share on the Gallaga side, he descends twice from the Lomelini. The farthes Gallaga is (that Ive found)
Padre Hidalgo
Ana Ma. Gallaga y Mandarte 1731 in michoacan
Juan San pedro Alcantara Gallaga y Mandarte 4 feb 1703 in La Barca Jal
Fernando Gallaga y Mandarte abt 1670.
Ana Gallaga's mother is a carrier of the compound name de Villaseñor y Lomelini.
Joaquina de Villaseñor y Lomelini
Juan Manuel de V y L
Pedro de Villa..y Lomelini
The creators of the surname, Juan de Villaseñor and Maria di Lomelini.
hija de Luigi di Lomelini.
Sorry I dont have dates
_________________________________________________________________
Daniel tengo una acta de matrimonio de Ana Maria Gallaga y Mandarte,el acta dice que se caso en 1687 con juan José vazquez, hijo deJJuan Antonio Vazquez y Luciana Casillas, sera que ella enviudo y sa caso por segunda vez ?, o es otra Ana María Gallaga y Mandarte ?.
el documento es de tepatitlan jalisco.
¡Obtén la mejor experiencia en la web! Descarga gratis el nuevo Internet Explorer 8. http://downloads.yahoo.com/ieak8/?l=mx
Si la fecha que proporcionas es correcta entonces se trata de otra Ana Gallaga, seguramente parienta de la mamá de Miguel Hidalgo, ya que Miguel Hidalgo nació el 8 de mayo de 1757, así que tu Ana Gallaga tendría 70 años.
Yo vivo en Tejupilco que es el pueblo originario de los Hidalgo y Costilla, el próximo año publico un pequeño trabajo sobre Tejupilco y los Hidalgo y Costilla. el padre de Miguel Hidalgo fue Cristobal Hidalgo y Costilla Espinoza de los Monteros nació en Tejupilco el 13 de septiembre de 1713. Él ingresó al seminario de la Ciudad de México y debido a una conjutivitis aguda ý pérdida de visión abandonó sus estudios, una viuda rica vecina de la Ciudad le ofreció administrar una de sus haciendas en Guanajuato, y por eso es que se fue a vivir a Corralejo allá casó y procreó a sus hijos.
Por si a alguien le interesa abuelos paternos de Miguel Hidalgo fueron: Francisco Costilla Gómez de Betanzos y Mariana Espinoza de los Monteros Gómez de Betanzos (primos hermanos hijos de las hermanas Ana ý Elvira Gómez de Betanzos y Sotelo). Ambos nacidos en Tejupilco.
Los bisabuelos de Miguel Hidalgo fueron: Juan Hidalgo Costilla y Ana Gómez de Betanzos y Sotelo. Él originario de Tejupilco y ella del Real de Minas de Sultepec.
Los tatarabuelos de Miguel Hidalgo fueron: el cura de Tejupilco Lic. Francisco Hidalgo Vendaval Cabeza de Baca y la viuda Jerónima Costilla. Francisco fue cura de Tejupilco de 1620 a 1628, era originario de la Cuidad de México. y por el otro lado los tatarabuelos fueron Don Diego Gómez de Betanzos y Doña Ana Maria de Sotelo. mineros de Sultepec.
Rodolfo Sinaí Gómez
> Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 04:39:55 -0700
> From: rubenazo_casillas@yahoo.com.mx
> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Padre Miguel Hidalgo
>
> Daniel tengo una acta de matrimonio de Ana Maria Gallaga y Mandarte,el acta dice que se caso en 1687 con juan José vazquez, hijo deJJuan Antonio Vazquez y Luciana Casillas, sera que ella enviudo y sa caso por segunda vez ?, o es otra Ana María Gallaga y Mandarte ?.
> el documento es de tepatitlan jalisco.
>
>
> ¡Obtén la mejor experiencia en la web! Descarga gratis el nuevo Internet Explorer 8. http://downloads.yahoo.com/ieak8/?l=mx
En Tepatitlán hay varios registros de personas de apellido Gallaga y Mandarte, los cuales son los mismos del cura Miguel Hidalgo y Costilla.
Saludos.
Jorge Luis Ramírez Gómez.
_________________________________________________________________
Comparte tus recuerdos en línea con quien tú desees.
http://www.microsoft.com/mexico/windows/windowslive/products/photos-sha…
No se si ustedes saben esto, pero el abuelo del cura Miguel Hidalgo, el señor Juan de San Pedro Gallaga Mandarte casó en Tepatitlán con Juana Tadea de Aceves y Gómez de Espejo el 07 de marzo de 1734 en primeras nupcias. También existe un documento de Aspirantes al ilustre y Real Colegio de Abogados de México en los que el hermano del cura Hidalgo, Manuel Hidalgo y Costilla, menciona que su abuelo materno Juan Pedro Gallaga Mandarte es natural de Tepatitlán, jurisdicción de la Barca, Nueva Galicia.
Saludos.
Jorge Luis Ramírez Gómez.
_________________________________________________________________
Con Windows Live, puedes organizar, editar y compartir tus fotos.
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Hello Rick
What were the mistakes in the genealogy of on the Villaseñor side of Miguel Hidalgo y Costilla? Where can the chart of the genealogy of the freedom fighters be found?
Armando
Submitted by R.A.Ricci on 26 February, 2009 - 2:39am.
Besides hidalgos mother being raised by grandparents and uncles which screwed up some peoples genealogies there is another mixup that was harder to catch on the villasenor side because a distinguished genealogist
did not get it exactly right and a lot of people copied his work. This genealogy (with a couple of mistakes) was even submitted to the genealogical society in Mexico city. A marriage dispensation clarifies everything and now there is no dispute. Not everyone knows about the clarification and I see the mistaken genealogy posted on the internet or in books. Some people have the correct genealogy. I believe that chart of the genealogy of the freedom fighters has the correct genealogy. From the dispensation and what I had put together of his mother's side which are some of the families of nuestros ranchos members, I have pieced his tree together and I will post it soon.
R.A.Ricci
Hello Armando. I have had to put genealogy aside for the moment because of work (teaching middle school). This winter break I will take out of storage my notes on Hidalgo. The Heroes chart was found on nuestros ranchos or another internet site. They had the correct genealogy though it lacked some info if I recall correctly. As to that mistake on the villasenor side, the prominent genealogist confused a nephew and an uncle so a lot of his chart info was correct with just minor errors that when corrected added another generation, just like the mistake a lot of people made with the Marin family.
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
-----Original Message-----
From: fandemma@gmail.com
Sender: research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.orgDate: Mon, 6 Dec 2010 12:08:38
To:
Reply-To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] miguel hidalgo costilla genealogy mixup
Hello Rick
What were the mistakes in the genealogy of on the Villaseñor side of Miguel Hidalgo y Costilla? Where can the chart of the genealogy of the freedom fighters be found?
Armando
Submitted by R.A.Ricci on 26 February, 2009 - 2:39am.
Besides hidalgos mother being raised by grandparents and uncles which screwed up some peoples genealogies there is another mixup that was harder to catch on the villasenor side because a distinguished genealogist
did not get it exactly right and a lot of people copied his work. This genealogy (with a couple of mistakes) was even submitted to the genealogical society in Mexico city. A marriage dispensation clarifies everything and now there is no dispute. Not everyone knows about the clarification and I see the mistaken genealogy posted on the internet or in books. Some people have the correct genealogy. I believe that chart of the genealogy of the freedom fighters has the correct genealogy. From the dispensation and what I had put together of his mother's side which are some of the families of nuestros ranchos members, I have pieced his tree together and I will post it soon.
R.A.Ricci
Hello Rick,
I am looking forward to the Villaseñor info since I can't find the chart mentioned. I assume the genealogist you speak of is José Ignacio Dávila Garibi and the society being Academia Mexicana de Genealogía e Historia. Miguel Hidalgo may have also been a descendant of the greatgrandparents of Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, author of Don Quixote de la Mancha. Their names were Diego de Cervantes, comendador de la orden de Santiago, and Juana Avellaneda. The connection is dependant on Leonel de Cervantes Tello being an ancestor of Miguel Hidalgo and his father, Diego Cervantes, being a son of the comendador Diego de Cervantes.
I just found a statement you had made "I descend from Juan de Villasenor Orozco and Catalina Cervantes y Lara Andrada. Catalina's grandfather, Diego Cervantes, married to Guiomar de Tello is related to the other giant cervantes family. When the two cervantes joined in a marriage there was an acknowledgement of the bride's father that they come from two branches of the same cervantes family." It would be great to get a copy of wherever that acknowledgement from Diego Cervantes exists, if it does. I also descend from Juan de Villasenor Orozco and Catalina Cervantes y Lara Andrada which is why I am so interested in this.
Some other tidbits you may or may not have. There is a statement that "Boy-Bowman lo considera natural de Sevilla y también Álvarez" on a page that mentions Leonel de Cervantes Tello. http://www.alcaldesvcentenario.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=ar… When http://www.bisabuelos.com/mex/cervantes.html states that the Gómez de Cervantes are sevillanos. Another site states there was a Diego de Cervantes Avellaneda that was alcaide de Gibraltar. He could have been the father of Leonel de Cervantes Tello.
If there is anyone else that can help with this info I would appreciate it.
A los miembros hispanohablantes,
Busco la genealogía correcta de Miguel Hidalgo y Costilla por lado Villaseñor que incluye información de la dispensa que corrige la errónea. Aparte de otras cosas busco confirmar que Miguel Hidalgo es descendiente de Leonel de Cervantes Tello. También busco verificar que el padre de Leonel de Cervantes Tello, Diego de Cervantes, fue hijo de Diego de Cervantes, comendador de la orden de Santiago, y Juana Avellaneda como aparece en otra página de genealogía. Si se confirma esa información podríamos decir que Miguel Hidalgo fue pariente lejano de Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra.
Armando
I also read about that acknowledgement. I did a little research but got sidetracked by a couple other lines that I was working on and then work and life sidetracked me that I had to store everything. If I remember correctly, I had followed different cervantes lines and come up with possible links that could only be followed up in Spain at that time. I will try to Look through my records in late december. I only had possible leads as to how the two cervantes lines were connected. But they looked promising.
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
-----Original Message-----
From: fandemma@gmail.com
Sender: research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.orgDate: Fri, 10 Dec 2010 21:33:54
To:
Reply-To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Miguel Hidalgo Costilla genealogy mixup
Hello Rick,
I am looking forward to the Villaseñor info since I can't find the chart mentioned. I assume the genealogist you speak of is José Ignacio Dávila Garibi and the society being Academia Mexicana de Genealogía e Historia. Miguel Hidalgo may have also been a descendant of the greatgrandparents of Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, author of Don Quixote de la Mancha. Their names were Diego de Cervantes, comendador de la orden de Santiago, and Juana Avellaneda. The connection is dependant on Leonel de Cervantes Tello being an ancestor of Miguel Hidalgo and his father, Diego Cervantes, being a son of the comendador Diego de Cervantes.
I just found a statement you had made "I descend from Juan de Villasenor Orozco and Catalina Cervantes y Lara Andrada. Catalina's grandfather, Diego Cervantes, married to Guiomar de Tello is related to the other giant cervantes family. When the two cervantes joined in a marriage there was an acknowledgement of the bride's father that they come from two branches of the same cervantes family." It would be great to get a copy of wherever that acknowledgement from Diego Cervantes exists, if it does. I also descend from Juan de Villasenor Orozco and Catalina Cervantes y Lara Andrada which is why I am so interested in this.
Some other tidbits you may or may not have. There is a statement that "Boy-Bowman lo considera natural de Sevilla y también Álvarez" on a page that mentions Leonel de Cervantes Tello. http://www.alcaldesvcentenario.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=ar… When http://www.bisabuelos.com/mex/cervantes.html states that the Gómez de Cervantes are sevillanos. Another site states there was a Diego de Cervantes Avellaneda that was alcaide de Gibraltar. He could have been the father of Leonel de Cervantes Tello.
If there is anyone else that can help with this info I would appreciate it.
A los miembros hispanohablantes,
Busco la genealogía correcta de Miguel Hidalgo y Costilla por lado Villaseñor que incluye información de la dispensa que corrige la errónea. Aparte de otras cosas busco confirmar que Miguel Hidalgo es descendiente de Leonel de Cervantes Tello. También busco verificar que el padre de Leonel de Cervantes Tello, Diego de Cervantes, fue hijo de Diego de Cervantes, comendador de la orden de Santiago, y Juana Avellaneda como aparece en otra página de genealogía. Si se confirma esa información podríamos decir que Miguel Hidalgo fue pariente lejano de Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra.
Armando
Estimados compañeros:
No he probado la línea paterna de don Miguel Hidalgo y Costilla, pero de los Gallaga si lo he probado muy profundamente. Ojalá puedo ayudar en alguna forma u otra. Siempre trae interés sobre la genealogía del padre de la patria. Como cualquier otro Miguel Hidalgo y Costilla le reclamo como pariente mío, por su línea materna que es alteña.
Los Gallaga y Mandarte son unas de mis familias favoritas del Obispado de Michoacán, aunque su solar novohispano no era en Guanajuato sino Ahuahulco de Mercado. Tuvieron puestos nobles y grandes oficios en la hierarchía de la Iglesia Católica, y en las fuerzas del ejército, como el padre Vicente Gallaga y Mandarte, cura vicario de Dolores a un tiempo luego en Salamanca. Y pues como sepamos familia materna del padre de la patria, en realidad hay mucho que podía de hablar sobre esta familia pero el tiempo me roba.
La Sra. doña Ana Maria Gallega y Mandarte fue bautizada 11 de marzo de 1731 en la parroquia de San Nicolás de Tolentino en Villa de Morelos, Obispado de Michoacán. Hija legítima y única de don Juan de San Pedro de Alcántara Gallaga y Mandarte y doña Joaquina de Villaseñor y Cervantes. Ana María casó el 15 de agosto de 1750 en Pénjamo, Guanajuato, Obispado de Michoacán a Cristóbal Hidalgo y Costilla hijo de Francisco Hidalgo y Costilla, y Mariana “según” Espinoza de los Monteros”.(Todavía tengo duda sobre la línea paterna, pasado éstos. Radicados en Correlejo, Gto. Ana María falleció el 9 de abril de 1762.
El padre de Ana María, don Juan de San Pedro fue bautizado el 4 de febrero de 1703 en La Barca, Jalisco (en ese tiempo Obispado de Michoacán) hijo de don Fernando Gallaga y Mandarte, y María Josefa Navarro Gaytán (más bien conocida como de Zamora y Solís)/ Casó dos veces en primer nupcias con la madre de Ana María, la Sra. Joaquina hija de Juan Manuel de Villaseñor y Cervantes y Elena Cortés, luego por segundas a Juana Tadea de Aceves hija de Pedro de Aceves y Margarita Gómez de Espejo (también Ruiz de Velasco) radicados en Tepatitlán Juan y Juana casaron el 7 de marzo de 1734 en Tepatitlán.
Fernando Gallaga y Mandarte era de Ahuahulco de Mercado, Jalisco hijo de Pedro Gallaga y Mandarte, y Juana de Lomelín; su esposa María Josefa de Ocotlán donde se bautizó el 27 de marzo de 1671 hija de don Mateo Navarro Gaytán y Catalina de la Mora y Hurtado de Mendoza (conocida también como Zamora y Solís). Esta línea materna todas utilizaron Zamora y Solís o simple de Zamora u cualquier variación. Bautizaron varios hijos en Ayotlán, La Barca, Ocotlán y Tepatitlán.
Pedro Gallaga y Mandarte (los padres de éste todavía estoy probando lo explicaré al fin de este mensaje). Nacio hacia 1640 posible Ahuahulco de Mercado. Por lo menos casó en Nochistlán con Juana de Lomelín hija del capitán Nicolás Jiménez de Contreras (también Pérez) y María de Lomelín, nieta por materna el famoso patriarca de los Lomelín aunque tambien habia su hermano Luigi Lomellini, Carlo Lomellini y María Benavidez, radicados en Nochistlán a los principios del siglo XVII. Sospecho los Jiménez de Contreras tuvieron enlaces con gente del mismo apellido en la ciudad de Méjico de la misma época.
Ahora sobre la liñaje de los Gallaga. En mis estudios encontré un pasaje a Indias de Pedro de Gallaga Hemandarte dónde paso a la Nueva España el 19 de junio de 1620 donde consta que era natural de Durango (País Vasco) en los Reinos de Castilla. Hijo de Pedro Gallaga Hernandarte y María Ibañez de Zuaza. Llego como criado del Dr. don Juan del Castilla, cura vicario del Diocésis de Tlaxcala. Si llego en 1620 le pone por lo menos nacer hacia 1600 nuestro Pedro Gallaga y Mandarte nacio hacia 1640, es posible su nieto o hijo, aun no lo sé. Por lo menos sé que eran del mismo nombre. Hay una posibilidad hay tres Pedro Gallaga y Mandarte. Pedro Gallaga y Mandarte y Juana de Lomelín radicaron en Ahuahulco de Mercado donde bautizaron varios hijos y dichos también casaron ahí.
Mis fuentes de información incluye varios microfilm de Nochistlán, Ayotlán, Ocotlán, Tepatitlán, Ahuhulco de Mercado, Pénjamo, etc. Los Archivos de Indias. Por cualquier quien preguntará. No tuve éxito en encontrar algún registro sobre los Gallaga en el siglo XVII en el Archivo General de la Nación, si existe de ellos pero del siglo XVIII.
Ojala estos datos os ayuda en algo,
Daniel Méndez y Camino
Hola Daniel, ahorita revisando mi base de datos encontré que yo tengo como padres de Pedro Gallaga y Mandarte el esposo de Juana Lomelí a Pedro Gallaga y Mandarte y Ana Rodríguez. Y sus abuelos paternos son los que mencionas Pedro Gallaga y Mandarte y María Ibáñez de Zuazua. Pero no tengo la fuente donde tomé la información así que no estoy seguro de que la información sea verídica. Tómala con precaución.
L.C.P. Jorge Luis Ramírez Gómez.
Tepatitlán de Morelos, Jalisco, México.
Tel.: 3781095311
www.facebook.com/jorgeluis.ramirezgomez
I recently came across this information posted by the Government of the State of Mexico regarding a timeline of Tejupilco, a town in the same state, where the the paternal line of Miguel Hidalgo y Costilla can be traced.
Hace unos dias encontre un portal del Gobierno del Estado de Mexico donde se incluye una cronologia de Tejupilco, un poblado en ese mismo estado, donde la linea paterna de Don Migule Hidalgo tiene su origen.
Go to: http://www.tejupilco.gob.mx/contenido/index.php?option=com_content&view…, it includes some interesting information about el Cura Hidalgo's family including:
1662 Nace en este pueblo en la hacienda de Las Juntas de los Ríos: Don Francisco Costilla Gómez de Betanzos (abuelo paterno de Miguel Hidalgo).
12 Septiembre de 1713 nace en la hacienda de Las Juntas de los Ríos Parroquia de Tejupilco: Don Cristóbal Hidalgo y Costilla Espinoza de los Monteros (father of Don Miguel Hidalgo)
Junio a octubre de 1767 Miguel y José Joaquín Hidalgo y Costilla viven en Tejupilco junto a sus tías María y Nicolasa.
There is other information, including the names of his great grandparents,
Jaime R. Alvarado
Dear Armando,
please send me your line of descent from Leonel Cervantes if you want it in my book. Leonel Cervantes As you already know, I too descend from him. Boyd-bowman is correct that he has an Alvarez ancestor. This Alvarez Ancestor was born in Fez, Morroco, Africa. If you check http://www.nuestrosranchos.org/node/21746?page=2 you can read about this ancestor that was born in Fez, Morrocco
I Wrote about his last comments on his deathbed.
If you check some of the posts that I have made in the past week you will find some of Leonel ancestors.
Leonel also has Italian ancestors. A Few of his Italian ancestors are brothers to Catholic Popes. I Have a lot more information in my book.
I have done much research on these lines. I ran into a brickwall in the 14 th century on one line until I found a book written by genealogist/author George L. Williams. If Mr. Williams is correct, then this line is our closest blood connection to British royalty. According to Mr. Williams, an ancestor of ours is also the great great grandmother of Henry VIII. As Mr. Williams put a lot of research into his book, he is most likely correct. I can't help but feel that who he lists as a father to our ancestor is actually her grandfather. Either way she does descend from him.
Rick A Ricci
I have found : jose Calletano perez married (1754) to Maria a Magdalena chavez father of Andres perez which is married (1793) to luisa villalpando I hope someone has more information in these area th
Hello
Although, I had no luck finding additional information on Cayetano Perez and Magdalena de Chavez; I did locate some of Luisa de Villalpando's ancestry which I have added online at Wikitree: http://www.wikitree.com/genealogy/de%20Villalpando-Family-Tree-23.
This is a work in progress for which the next step is to see if there are dispensas that can verify or add to this tree.
Hope this helps.
Austin Perez
thank you for the reply Austin I notice your last name is Perez mine is also Perez maybe no relation but cool. Im going to look at wikitree thanks again.
I just went to wikitree I cant seem to think are you related some how to Luisa de Villalpando only because it looks like alot of work went into researching all these people .I want to thank you for helping me on my brick wall. not to bother you Again because you helped me so much already just wanted to say on Andres Peres his father is Caytano "Calletano" Peres the "Z" in perez on most records is an "S" but I know you know this much I saw a record for Calletano Perez Father being Domingo Peres and mother being Juana Alva from Aguascalientes geting married https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-XXC3-ZY9 I could be wrong with this finding thanks again
here is the record that mentions Caytano Peres father to be Domingo Perez and mother to be Juana Alva https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-19050-62795-24?cc=1874591 here is my email if you need to send me any info on my grandparents I do appreciate it. ghostops98@yahoo.com
Hi and happy new year.
My Perez line currently ends with Juan Perez de Ornelas (http://www.wikitree.com/wiki/P%C3%A9rez_de_Ornelas-3) who married the widow Leonor Gonzalez de Ruvalcaba. Leonor's first marriage was to Sebastian Perez. I tested for Y-DNA and have my results in Family Tree DNA, GEDMatch, DNA Land and also in Wikitree. Have you tested your Y-DNA?
I did find the marriage record for Jose Perez (http://www.wikitree.com/wiki/P%C3%A9rez-1597) and Maria Magdalena de Chavez and currently have them as a separate couple. They probably are the same couple since they lived around the same time but the fact that the groom is listed as Jose Perez and not Jose Cayetano makes me want to find additional confirming information. Perhaps the marriage of Jose Perez and Ines Garcia will help.
Even if we are not related though our Perez lines, we do have common ancestors through our Villalpando and Esqueda. And very likely we are also related through Chavez, Ruvalcaba, Estrada, Macias and Lopez de la Cerda.
Hasta pronto
Austin
...correction to my previous post. I have my Y-DNA results on Family Tree DNA and Wikitree. I also have added my autosomal DNA results on those sites and also on GEDMatch and and DNA Land.
Austin
I've been meaning to send an email to specifically thank Arturo Ramos for some helpful suggestions that he made some years back about where best to do my Pinedo research.
I think that perhaps your Pinedo's and mine might have some relation. The farthest I have gone with that line is Juan Pinedo and his wife, Gertrudis Acuna. Both were born in the 1740's, and lived in Jerez or its surrounding area. I have not been able to find who were their parents.
Where did your find your record that Juan Pinedo and Gertrudis Acuna were born in the 1740s?
I've noticed the following Pinedo-Acuna couples having children in Jerez between 1750s to 1770s, which would suggest they were born in the 1730s or 1740s.
Juan Ancelmo Pinedo m. Margarita de Acuna
Joseph Pinedo m. Rita de Acuna
Joseph Ylario Pinedo m. Teresa de Acuna
Juan Joseph Pinedo m. Anna Josefa de Acuna
It's strange that there's so many Pinedo-Acuna couples in a town that much have been small at this time...unless these are the same people. It's frustrating that there's no other genealogy records to look at for this time period. Are there other records, perhaps city court records or other records that may have information?
Chris Pineda
Hi Daniel,
At the top of family search, below the words Family Search, there's five subjects: RECORDS, GENEALOGIES, CATALOG, BOOKS, and WIKI -click on the one that says "CATALOG," then click on "Film/
Thank you a lot Chris. I need to save your response for similar issues in the future! Daniel
I am trying to find the original record for: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NVV6-FQX This index record gives the film number 1095309.
-----Original Message-----
From: mimilozano@somosprimos.com [mailto:mimilozano@somosprimos.com]
Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2015 2:38 PM
To: mimilozano@aol.com
Subject: Somos Primos January 2016
Hi,
I've seen examples in which after a child dies, they give the same name or a similar one to a sibling. Also examples in which a parent gives the same or a similar name to children from his/her first and second marriages.
Victoriano Navarro
I appreciate the encouragement. I have found another marriage for a Pedro Valdez and a Martina Sandate that do not match the parents of my great grandfather, yea!! unforantely, the death record for Pilar age 5 mentions that the mother's name is Martina (Maetina) but doesn't not give Martina's parents names. Thank you for the taking the time to leave a message. It means the world to me. :)
Juanita Torrez Henniger
.
it's not unusual for a family to name more than one child by the same name. In my family there are two sons, Juan Jose and Juan Francisco and both are sometimes called Juan. Also not unusual to name twins both the identical same name.. do no despair..
Linda Castanon-Long
I wondered if maybe Pilar had a twin. Since, he has a set twin sisters and possible a set of twin boy/twin girl. Though, the boy/girl are listed as Maria Felipa y Santiago. Felipa later died. Have not been able to fine Santiago. I just never thought that they would use the name twice. Though that would explain the same birthdates.
Thank you,
Juanita
This is a bit off topic, but does anyone know if the Guadalajara dispenses have dispensations for marriages in Guanajuato & Michoacan?
Jaime
Which diocesan records you look at depends when the various dioceses were erected, the time period you are interested in and from which older dioceses they were created. I have not looked at how the various dioceses of Mexico have evolved over time, however, there is a website that gives this information that may be helpful. It is "Catholic Heorarchy" at www.Catholic-Heirarchy.org
George Fulton
The Diocese of Michoacan was erected in 1536 and from it the Diocese of Guadalajara in 1548, so these records are pretty much contemporary. Thus which one to consult will depend on the location. Other changes to the Diocese of Michoacan did not happen until 1777 (with the erection of the Diocese of Linares or Nueva Leon (which was later renamed Monterrey)). The Diocese of Durango was split from Guadalajara in 1620.
Few other changes to the dioceses were not made until the mid 1800s with numerous new dioceses created.
If the diocesan records have been filmed (as in the case of Guadalajara) they should be found under the city where the cathedral is.
George Fulton
To Sergio Gutierrez Molina
Dear Sergio Gutierrez Martinez,
In your book you have eleven children for Florentino de San Miguel Gutierrez y Jimenez and Maria Francisca Romo Ramirez.
I also have eleven children in my records. The issue is that you have Juana Maria as their child and you provide a baptismal record but no marriage record. I don't have her in my records but i do have as their child Merced Gutierrez where her parents are listed in the marriage record.
I wonder if Juana Maria and Merced are the same person and her name should be Juana Maria de Los Mercedes Gutierrez Romo or if they had twelve children.
Merced is an important member of this family as she is the ancestor of Santo Toribio Romo. Maria Merced Gutierrez is married to Jose Maria Gonzalez and they are the parents of Gabino Gonzalez, baptized 26/feb1831 in Jalostotitlan. This Gabino Gonzalez Gutierrez is the maternal grandfather of Santo Toribio Romo Gonzalez. This Gabino was also married to a Romo. Santo Toribio is a third cousin to my maternal grandfather repeatedly through his Gutierrez, Gonzalez, Romo, and Jimenez lines.
I also have other information to add and complement your wonderful book.
Your cousin,
R.A.Ricci
Great to hear you have found useful and that we share the Gutierrez de Hermosillo line. You are correct, I did miss this family of Merced, I recognized this error a few months back when a friend provided me his family tree. The tree clearly showed that the daughter of Florentino was related to Santo Toribio. I have made notes in my book to correct this missing information, as well as others that have been pointed out by my fellow genealogists and family. Hopefully in the near future I will publish a revision.
Concerning story of Emeterio Romo Gutierrez being the horse whisperer who broke Pancho Villas world famous horse, hopefully you share more information and would gladly include it in my follow up of the book, as well as other info. you mention in your comment.
Saludos,
Sergio Gutiérrez Martínez
Dear Sergio,
Just off the top of my head there are five lines that I can add to that go all the way to the present. The problem is that one of the lines may ruffle some feathers. I know a 3rd cousin of my moms that I'll call"Jose" that has a father that you list in your book. The problem is that you list this father as having a different wife. Either "Jose" is illegitimate or the wife that you have for his father in your book is not really his wife. I did his genealogy going back from his parents but never questioned him whether his parents were married when he said he did not have the date of their marriage. I do not feel comfortable asking "Jose"if he is illegitimate. There is a small chance that his father was married twice but I doubt it because I remember a story that "Jose" left Jalostotitlan when his daughter started talking to a boy that was closely related but the families didn't recognize each other because one of the families was illegitimate. When I was told The story I had assumed that the boys family was the one that came from the illegitimate side. Now I think that "Jose" may be illegitimate.
R.A.Ricci
Maybe I help you find "Jose" parent's marriage information. You can send me a private message with the details.
Sergio Gutierrez
Dear Sergio,
It is a small world. Not only do we find relatives in the study of genealogy. we find secrets that many wish to stay hidden. This Jose de Jesus that I said belonged in the family tree does come from an illegitimate relationship. This Jose de Jesus is my first cousins father in law. I was surprised when I originally found out that he was my moms third cousin since we had never heard of him before.
When I was growing up, the Romos all knew their second and third cousins because they were all interested in the family tree. My tio Dr. Rito Romo Franco and my grandfather Don Mere Romo Franco were very close to their first and second cousins. Rito and my grandfathers father was Romo Gutierrez. That meant they also knew the children of their second cousins and would introduce them to me and other family members Through your book the secret came out why we did not know of this Gutierrez branch. Your information in your book is correct. Jose's father is listed having a different wife in your book because he had a second secret family.
I am surprised that the secret didn't come out when when you and my cousin became friends in college. I guess you guys didn't compare family trees. If you had, you would have discovered two cousins, him and his future wife.
Aguien tiene los padres de esta pareja, vecinos de San Miguel(de los Alba), casada en Aguascalientes el 5 de junio de 1719. En el registro del matrimonio no aparecen sus padres.
Francisco Martín del Campo Lara has a Catarina de Villalobos as the daughter of Tomás Villalobos y Macías Valadez and Josefa Martín del Campo y López de La Cruz born in 1642 in San Juan de los Lagos daughter of Lázaro Martín del Campo y García and María María Vallín López de la Cruz who were married in 1627 in Guadalajara, Jalisco http://gw1.geneanet.org/index.php3?b=fcomartin&lang=es;p=catarina;n=vil… However he has with Nicolás Villalobos y Martín del Campo being the husband of Teresa Carrillo de Sandi. Her husband is Nicolás Villalobos Macías Valadez.
Armando
Submitted by R.A.Ricci on Sun, 2010-03-28 23:13.
I have verified that Catarina de Villalobos y Martin del Campo is the daughter of Josepha Martin del campo. Do you know who her father is? Josepha was born in 1691 san juan de los lagos and is the daughter Lazaro Martin del Campo and maria lopez de la cruz. I verified this through a dispensation.
R.A.Ricci
Who are the parents of Maria Dolores Gonzalez Rubio who marriedFrancisco Antonio Munoz de Nava?
Regards,Daniel
> To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> From: migueltran@gmail.com
> Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 08:14:46 -0700
> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Andres Munoz de Nava -Maria Teresa De Alba y Estrada Bocanegra
>
> Aguien tiene los padres de esta pareja, vecinos de San Miguel(de los Alba), casada en Aguascalientes el 5 de junio de 1719. En el registro del matrimonio no aparecen sus padres.
> Andres y Maria Teresa tuvieron por hijos, al menos a:
> -Francisco Antonio.- Sepultado el 6 mayo 1729, de 3 dias de edad, en Aguascalientes.
> -Francisco Antonio(otro).- bautizado abr 1737 en Aguascalientes Y casado con Maria de los Dolores Gonzalez Rubio y Lomelin, el 9 de octubre de 1768 en Santa Maria de los Lagos).
> -Joseph Joaquin.- Bautizado el 11 abr 1728 en Aguascalientes, y casado con Eufrasia -Antonia Rubio de Monroy y Martinez de Basurto el 8 de enero de 1755 en el mismo lugar
> -Miguel Geronimo.- bautizado el 22 de oct 1731 en Aguascalientes.
> -Magdalena.- bautizada el 16 de febrero de 1724 en Aguascalientes.
>
> Gracias.
Who are the parents of Maria Dolores Gonzalez Rubio who marriedFrancisco Antonio Munoz de Nava?
Regards,Daniel
> To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> From: migueltran@gmail.com
> Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 08:14:46 -0700
> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Andres Munoz de Nava -Maria Teresa De Alba y Estrada Bocanegra
>
> Aguien tiene los padres de esta pareja, vecinos de San Miguel(de los Alba), casada en Aguascalientes el 5 de junio de 1719. En el registro del matrimonio no aparecen sus padres.
> Andres y Maria Teresa tuvieron por hijos, al menos a:
> -Francisco Antonio.- Sepultado el 6 mayo 1729, de 3 dias de edad, en Aguascalientes.
> -Francisco Antonio(otro).- bautizado abr 1737 en Aguascalientes Y casado con Maria de los Dolores Gonzalez Rubio y Lomelin, el 9 de octubre de 1768 en Santa Maria de los Lagos).
> -Joseph Joaquin.- Bautizado el 11 abr 1728 en Aguascalientes, y casado con Eufrasia -Antonia Rubio de Monroy y Martinez de Basurto el 8 de enero de 1755 en el mismo lugar
> -Miguel Geronimo.- bautizado el 22 de oct 1731 en Aguascalientes.
> -Magdalena.- bautizada el 16 de febrero de 1724 en Aguascalientes.
>
> Gracias.
Tengo otros hijos que te falta:
Maria Josepha Munoz de Nava bautizada el 23 de octubre de 1735Casilda Gertrudis Munoz deNava bautizada el 23 de mayo de 1734Miguel Geronimo el 22 de octubre de 1731
Saludos,Daniel
_________________________________________________________________
Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft’s powerful SPAM protection.
http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/210850552/direct/01/
Daniel, I really have nothing. only is the marriage of Eufrasia, her baptism, and her parent´s marriage.
I'd appreciate if you send me some of what you have
Miguel Beltran
Miguel, how far have you traced the Rubio de Monroy and MArtinez de Basurto y Verdin of Guadalajara?I traced it back to the early 1600s and I might have found the peninusulares of this family but need toorder some records to verify it.
Regards,Daniel
Eufracia Antonia was daughter of Miguel Rubio de Monroy and Beatriz de Noriega (Martinez de Basurto).She was baptized 2 Feb 1735 in Cocula, Jalisco.
To learn more about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saintsplease visit www.mormon.org
> To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> From: migueltran@gmail.com
> Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 08:14:46 -0700
> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Andres Munoz de Nava -Maria Teresa De Alba y Estrada Bocanegra
>
> Aguien tiene los padres de esta pareja, vecinos de San Miguel(de los Alba), casada en Aguascalientes el 5 de junio de 1719. En el registro del matrimonio no aparecen sus padres.
> Andres y Maria Teresa tuvieron por hijos, al menos a:
> -Francisco Antonio.- Sepultado el 6 mayo 1729, de 3 dias de edad, en Aguascalientes.
> -Francisco Antonio(otro).- bautizado abr 1737 en Aguascalientes Y casado con Maria de los Dolores Gonzalez Rubio y Lomelin, el 9 de octubre de 1768 en Santa Maria de los Lagos).
> -Joseph Joaquin.- Bautizado el 11 abr 1728 en Aguascalientes, y casado con Eufrasia -Antonia Rubio de Monroy y Martinez de Basurto el 8 de enero de 1755 en el mismo lugar
> -Miguel Geronimo.- bautizado el 22 de oct 1731 en Aguascalientes.
> -Magdalena.- bautizada el 16 de febrero de 1724 en Aguascalientes.
>
> Gracias.
Miguel,
Los padres de Andrés Muñoz de Nava fueron Diego Muñoz de Nava y Catarina de
Villalobos; y los de María Teresa de Alba y Estrada Bocanegra fueron Juan de
Alba y Estrada Bocanegra y Juliana de Villalobos [aka Juliana Carrillo].
BILL FIGUEROA
----- Original Message -----
From:
To:
Sent: Friday, March 19, 2010 10:14 AM
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Andres Munoz de Nava -Maria Teresa De Alba
yEstrada Bocanegra
Alguien tiene los padres de esta pareja, vecinos de San Miguel (de los
Alba), casada en Aguascalientes el 5 de junio de 1719. En el registro del
matrimonio no aparecen sus padres...etc.
Muchas Gracias Bill.
Miguel Beltran
I have some questions Bill, just to verify, I know the compound surname de Alba y Estrada-Bocanegrawas created when Jose de Alba married Maria de Estrada y Bocanegra so I assume Juan is their son?Also, do you have more info on Catarina de Villalobos who married Diego Munoz de Nava? Who arethe parents of Juliana de Villaobos aka Carrillo.
Regards,Daniel
To learn more about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saintsplease visit www.mormon.org
> From: bill_figueroa@usa.net
> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 11:21:11 -0500
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Andres Munoz de Nava -Maria Teresa De Alba yEstrada Bocanegra
>
> Miguel,
>
> Los padres de Andrés Muñoz de Nava fueron Diego Muñoz de Nava y Catarina de
> Villalobos; y los de María Teresa de Alba y Estrada Bocanegra fueron Juan de
> Alba y Estrada Bocanegra y Juliana de Villalobos [aka Juliana Carrillo].
>
> BILL FIGUEROA
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From:
> To:
> Sent: Friday, March 19, 2010 10:14 AM
> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Andres Munoz de Nava -Maria Teresa De Alba
> yEstrada Bocanegra
>
>
> Alguien tiene los padres de esta pareja, vecinos de San Miguel (de los
> Alba), casada en Aguascalientes el 5 de junio de 1719. En el registro del
> matrimonio no aparecen sus padres...etc.
>
>
Daniel,
Juan de Alba y Estrada Bocanegra WAS NOT the son of Joseph de Alba and María Estrada Bocanegra. That illustrates the danger of making assumptions based only on surnames, not actual research. He was the son of Christobal de Alba and Theresa de Estrada Bocanegra. Joseph and Christobal were brothers, and María and Theresa were sisters. That makes Juan de Alba y Estrada Bocanegra the nephew of Joseph de Alba and María Estrada Bocanegra.
The parents of Juliana de Villalobos, aka Juliana Carrillo, were Miguel de Villalobos and Antonia Carrillo de Sandi.
BILL FIGUEROA
----- Original Message -----
From: "Daniel Mendez de Camino y Soto"
To: "Patty Hoyos"
Sent: Friday, March 19, 2010 5:11 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Andres Munoz de Nava -Maria Teresa DeAlba yEstrada Bocanegra
I have some questions Bill, just to verify, I know the compound surname de Alba y Estrada-Bocanegrawas created when Jose de Alba married Maria de Estrada y Bocanegra so I assume Juan is their son?Also, do you have more info on Catarina de Villalobos who married Diego Munoz de Nava? Who arethe parents of Juliana de Villaobos aka Carrillo.
Regards,Daniel
Hi Bill,
Do you the parents of Miguel de Villalobos and Antonia Carrillo de Sandi?
Thanks,Daniel
> From: bill_figueroa@usa.net
> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2010 10:55:46 -0500
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Andres Muñoz de Nava -Maria Teresa De Alba y Estrada Bocanegra
>
> Daniel,
>
> Juan de Alba y Estrada Bocanegra WAS NOT the son of Joseph de Alba and María Estrada Bocanegra. That illustrates the danger of making assumptions based only on surnames, not actual research. He was the son of Christobal de Alba and Theresa de Estrada Bocanegra. Joseph and Christobal were brothers, and María and Theresa were sisters. That makes Juan de Alba y Estrada Bocanegra the nephew of Joseph de Alba and María Estrada Bocanegra.
>
> The parents of Juliana de Villalobos, aka Juliana Carrillo, were Miguel de Villalobos and Antonia Carrillo de Sandi.
>
> BILL FIGUEROA
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Daniel Mendez de Camino y Soto"
> To: "Patty Hoyos"
> Sent: Friday, March 19, 2010 5:11 PM
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Andres Munoz de Nava -Maria Teresa DeAlba yEstrada Bocanegra
>
>
>
> I have some questions Bill, just to verify, I know the compound surname de Alba y Estrada-Bocanegrawas created when Jose de Alba married Maria de Estrada y Bocanegra so I assume Juan is their son?Also, do you have more info on Catarina de Villalobos who married Diego Munoz de Nava? Who arethe parents of Juliana de Villaobos aka Carrillo.
>
> Regards,Daniel
R.A.Ricci
I have been stumped by my estrada Bocanegra lines.
Do you know the parents of Cristobal de alba and Maria estrada y bocanegra?
What about the parents of maria estrada bocanegra married to fernando gomez Hurtado de mendoza y valdivia?
a third brick wall is diego Estrada married to Sebastiana Montano Cortez de arteaga?
A fourth estrada brick wall is Pedro Estrada married abt 1664 to Andrea Becerra Rodriguez?
Number 5 is Maria estrada Bocanegra married to Andres Munoz de Nava?
Number 6 is Maria de Carmel estrada married to salvador Becerra?
Number 7 is Petrona Estrada married to Jose Esteban Tello de Orosco y Ensino?
Hi, I can help with a couple of these:
1. I think you might have an error, Jose de Alba married Maria de Estrada-Bocanegra
not Cristobal, though they were brothers, Cristobal married Teresa Flores-Rubin.
Maria de Estrada-Bocangra was daughter of Andres de Estrada-Bocanegra and
Luisa Flores-Rubin (aka. Alvarez). Luisa and Maria were sisters. Cristobal
was son of Jose de Alba and Catalina de Arenas (Marin de Penaloza).
2. I have my assumoptions on this other Maria de Estrada who married Fernando
Gomez de Mendoza and Andres Munoz de Hermosillo, since she was from Jalostotitlan
that makes her probably a grandauther of Andres de Estrada-Bocanegra.
BTW, I descend from Cortes de Arteaga too, could you help me? I have
Diego Antonio Cortes de Arteaga and Margarita Gomez de Espejo (aka. Hernandez Gamino)
They married abt 1679 in Ayo el Chico and Diego Antonio died 17 Oct 1701 in Tepatitlan.
Ihave Margarita's parents but I have not found any more info on Antonio/
Thanks, Daniel
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Can you clarify the parents and grandparents of andres munoz de nava and maria teresa bocanegra? Are maria teresa's parents juan de alba estrada bocanegra and juliana Villalobos (Carillo de Sandi) and are juan's parents Cristobal de alba and teresa bocanegra. Is this teresa the Flores- Rubin you speak of. If it is than where does the estrada bocanegra come from.
As to margarita gomez de espejo hernandez Velasco, I have her as the daughter of Ana gomez de espejo.
I do not have a father listed but do have ana antonia gomez de espejo married to luis antonio Salcedo in 1653 and believe it is Possible that these 2 anas may be the same person but I do not know. Ana antonia is the dotr of domingo and juana.
The gomez de espejo line descends from domingo hernandez gamino and juana gomez de espejo
Who do you have as margaritas parents? I do not have antonios parents. I have antonio as being born abt 1654 in tepa along with the same marriage date and death as you have.
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
-----Original Message-----
From: Daniel Mendez de Camino
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2010 08:20:44
To: Patty Hoyos
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] 7 Estrada Bocanegra Brickwalls
Hi, I can help with a couple of these:
1. I think you might have an error, Jose de Alba married Maria de Estrada-Bocanegra
not Cristobal, though they were brothers, Cristobal married Teresa Flores-Rubin.
Maria de Estrada-Bocangra was daughter of Andres de Estrada-Bocanegra and
Luisa Flores-Rubin (aka. Alvarez). Luisa and Maria were sisters. Cristobal
was son of Jose de Alba and Catalina de Arenas (Marin de Penaloza).
2. I have my assumoptions on this other Maria de Estrada who married Fernando
Gomez de Mendoza and Andres Munoz de Hermosillo, since she was from Jalostotitlan
that makes her probably a grandauther of Andres de Estrada-Bocanegra.
BTW, I descend from Cortes de Arteaga too, could you help me? I have
Diego Antonio Cortes de Arteaga and Margarita Gomez de Espejo (aka. Hernandez Gamino)
They married abt 1679 in Ayo el Chico and Diego Antonio died 17 Oct 1701 in Tepatitlan.
Ihave Margarita's parents but I have not found any more info on Antonio/
Thanks, Daniel
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R.A.Ricci
I ma looking for the parents of cristobal de alba and teresa estrada bocanegra
Cristobal was buried 5nov1681 with teresa listed as his wife
Teresa estrada bocanegra died 10oct1699 both died in aguascalientes
Andres Munoz de Nava was son of Diego Munoz de Nava and Catalina de Villalobos.
Maria Teresa DE ALBA Y ESTRADA-BOCANEGRA was daughter of Juan de Alba y Estrada-Bocanegraand Juana Carrillo de Sandi (de Villalobos). The Albas who married the Estradas about 4 couplescombined their last names, making DE ALBA Y ESTRADA-Bocanegra.
Yes, Teresa Flores Rubin is the same woman, Teresa de Estrada Bocanegra. She was daughterof Andres de Estrada-Bocanegra and Luisa Flores Rubin (Luisa being of the Flores de la Torre clan).They were vecinos of Guadalajara. Teresa used her maternal name. When she married Cristobalde Alba they compounded their names de Alba y Estrada-Bocanegra, eventhough Teresa herselfused Flores Rubin.
Margarita's father is uknown (per the baptismal records, she is also listed as Velasco) so herfather was a RUIZ DE VELASCO and her mother is Ana Gomez de Espejo. Probably, a daughterof Domingo Hernandez Gamino but there is no evidence.
I'll need to check my records but Antonio is full listed as Diego Antonio Cortes de Arteaga, probablya dispensa is where I got it from. Good thing Im getting origanized with citations!!!
Not sure about Ana's parents this eludes me, but she is obvously an early Gomez de Espejo.
Regards,Daniel
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Can you connect this andres estrada bocanegra to alonso estrada the treasurer? I have catarina villalobos as a daughter of josefa martin del campo. No father listed in my records.
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
-----Original Message-----
From: Daniel Mendez de Camino
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2010 17:20:56
To: Patty Hoyos
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] 7 Estrada Bocanegra Brickwalls
Andres Munoz de Nava was son of Diego Munoz de Nava and Catalina de Villalobos.
Maria Teresa DE ALBA Y ESTRADA-BOCANEGRA was daughter of Juan de Alba y Estrada-Bocanegraand Juana Carrillo de Sandi (de Villalobos). The Albas who married the Estradas about 4 couplescombined their last names, making DE ALBA Y ESTRADA-Bocanegra.
Yes, Teresa Flores Rubin is the same woman, Teresa de Estrada Bocanegra. She was daughterof Andres de Estrada-Bocanegra and Luisa Flores Rubin (Luisa being of the Flores de la Torre clan).They were vecinos of Guadalajara. Teresa used her maternal name. When she married Cristobalde Alba they compounded their names de Alba y Estrada-Bocanegra, eventhough Teresa herselfused Flores Rubin.
Margarita's father is uknown (per the baptismal records, she is also listed as Velasco) so herfather was a RUIZ DE VELASCO and her mother is Ana Gomez de Espejo. Probably, a daughterof Domingo Hernandez Gamino but there is no evidence.
I'll need to check my records but Antonio is full listed as Diego Antonio Cortes de Arteaga, probablya dispensa is where I got it from. Good thing Im getting origanized with citations!!!
Not sure about Ana's parents this eludes me, but she is obvously an early Gomez de Espejo.
Regards,Daniel
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Can you share more about this Josepha Martin del Campo? What source do you have forher being the mother of Catarina (Catalina), I guess we'll have to find her father somehow.
Regards,Daniel
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Do you have any more info on andres and lucia. Where and when they married? Who their parents were? I looked for lucia in my flores de la torre database and did not find her. I did find 2 sons of andres and luisa. And possibly a third.
(1) pedro estrada flores bap. 5oct1619 and (2)andres jr. Bap. 4jul1618. The 3rd is bernardino estrada bap. 7jun1621. All baptisms in guad.
------Original Message------
From: Daniel Mendez de Camino
Sender: research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
To: Patty Hoyos
ReplyTo: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] 7 Estrada Bocanegra Brickwalls
Sent: Mar 28, 2010 8:20 AM
Hi, I can help with a couple of these:
1. I think you might have an error, Jose de Alba married Maria de Estrada-Bocanegra
not Cristobal, though they were brothers, Cristobal married Teresa Flores-Rubin.
Maria de Estrada-Bocangra was daughter of Andres de Estrada-Bocanegra and
Luisa Flores-Rubin (aka. Alvarez). Luisa and Maria were sisters. Cristobal
was son of Jose de Alba and Catalina de Arenas (Marin de Penaloza).
2. I have my assumoptions on this other Maria de Estrada who married Fernando
Gomez de Mendoza and Andres Munoz de Hermosillo, since she was from Jalostotitlan
that makes her probably a grandauther of Andres de Estrada-Bocanegra.
BTW, I descend from Cortes de Arteaga too, could you help me? I have
Diego Antonio Cortes de Arteaga and Margarita Gomez de Espejo (aka. Hernandez Gamino)
They married abt 1679 in Ayo el Chico and Diego Antonio died 17 Oct 1701 in Tepatitlan.
Ihave Margarita's parents but I have not found any more info on Antonio/
Thanks, Daniel
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Are you sure that it is flores rubin. Is it possible that it is Lucia Flores Rubio?
------Original Message------
From: Daniel Mendez de Camino
Sender: research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
To: Patty Hoyos
ReplyTo: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] 7 Estrada Bocanegra Brickwalls
Sent: Mar 28, 2010 5:20 PM
Andres Munoz de Nava was son of Diego Munoz de Nava and Catalina de Villalobos.
Maria Teresa DE ALBA Y ESTRADA-BOCANEGRA was daughter of Juan de Alba y Estrada-Bocanegraand Juana Carrillo de Sandi (de Villalobos). The Albas who married the Estradas about 4 couplescombined their last names, making DE ALBA Y ESTRADA-Bocanegra.
Yes, Teresa Flores Rubin is the same woman, Teresa de Estrada Bocanegra. She was daughterof Andres de Estrada-Bocanegra and Luisa Flores Rubin (Luisa being of the Flores de la Torre clan).They were vecinos of Guadalajara. Teresa used her maternal name. When she married Cristobalde Alba they compounded their names de Alba y Estrada-Bocanegra, eventhough Teresa herselfused Flores Rubin.
Margarita's father is uknown (per the baptismal records, she is also listed as Velasco) so herfather was a RUIZ DE VELASCO and her mother is Ana Gomez de Espejo. Probably, a daughterof Domingo Hernandez Gamino but there is no evidence.
I'll need to check my records but Antonio is full listed as Diego Antonio Cortes de Arteaga, probablya dispensa is where I got it from. Good thing Im getting origanized with citations!!!
Not sure about Ana's parents this eludes me, but she is obvously an early Gomez de Espejo.
Regards,Daniel
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I am sure, in Retonos, Mariano Gonzalez Leal lists her as Lucia Flores Rubin, there in Guadalajara he had found a capallania of the Flores de la Torre, I dont have acessto my records right now but when I get home I can check the book, Rubin is an elusivemystery to Mariano, no one really knows how Rubin tagged along the Flores de la Torre.
Regards,Daniel
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Does anybody know who the parents of Beatriz Andrada Bocanegra are? I descend from the Bocanegra from my Cervantes line but have been unable to go further on this line. Beatriz is the wife of Bernardino de Estrada "El Viejo" who is the son of Conquistador Francisco de Estrada, and grandson of Juan Sanchez de Estrada.
Thanks,
R.A.Ricci
------Original Message------
From: Daniel Mendez de Camino
Sender: research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
To: Patty Hoyos
ReplyTo: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] 7 Estrada Bocanegra Brickwalls
Sent: Mar 29, 2010 6:57 PM
I am sure, in Retonos, Mariano Gonzalez Leal lists her as Lucia Flores Rubin, there in Guadalajara he had found a capallania of the Flores de la Torre, I dont have acessto my records right now but when I get home I can check the book, Rubin is an elusivemystery to Mariano, no one really knows how Rubin tagged along the Flores de la Torre.
Regards,Daniel
_________________________________________________________________
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I have verified that Catarina de Villalobos y Martin del Campo is the daughter of Josepha Martin del campo. Do you know who her father is? Josepha was born in 1691 san juan de los lagos and is the daughter Lazaro Martin del Campo and maria lopez de la cruz. I verified this through a dispensation.
R.A.Ricci
I forgot to add that the dispenstion does not give all the information but what it did give plus what info I had in my files it is indisputable that these are the same people.
R.A.Ricci
Rick, if your Catarina was married to Jose Gonzalez de Hermosillo on June 2, 1732, and died August 15, 1794, then her parents were Capitan Jose-Blas Perez de Paredes and Josefa Martin del Campo. Let me know if this matches your records so I can give you the rest.
MIggy
----- Original Message -----
From: mygenes2000@yahoo.com
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Sunday, March 28, 2010 9:13 PM
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Catarina Villalobos Martin del campo
I have verified that Catarina de Villalobos y Martin del Campo is the daughter of Josepha Martin del campo. Do you know who her father is? Josepha was born in 1691 san juan de los lagos and is the daughter Lazaro Martin del Campo and maria lopez de la cruz. I verified this through a dispensation.
R.A.Ricci
No. This catarina was married to diego munoz de nava. Her mother was named josefa martin del campo y lopez.
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
-----Original Message-----
From: "Miggy GUTIERREZ"
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2010 22:41:22
To:
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Catarina Villalobos Martin del campo
Rick, if your Catarina was married to Jose Gonzalez de Hermosillo on June 2, 1732, and died August 15, 1794, then her parents were Capitan Jose-Blas Perez de Paredes and Josefa Martin del Campo. Let me know if this matches your records so I can give you the rest.
MIggy
----- Original Message -----
From: mygenes2000@yahoo.com
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Sunday, March 28, 2010 9:13 PM
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Catarina Villalobos Martin del campo
I have verified that Catarina de Villalobos y Martin del Campo is the daughter of Josepha Martin del campo. Do you know who her father is? Josepha was born in 1691 san juan de los lagos and is the daughter Lazaro Martin del Campo and maria lopez de la cruz. I verified this through a dispensation.
R.A.Ricci
From what Celestino Villalobos has given me and what I have gathered a few other places the parents of Miguel de Villalobos Macías Valadez are Tomás Villalobos y Pérez de Nava and Catarina Macías Valadez y Villegas and the parents of Antonia Carrillo de Sandi are Diego Carillo de Sandi and María López de Fuenllana.
The concuños were brothers and the concuñas were sisters if the info previously in this post and the previous post are correct.
Armando
Submitted by mendezdelcamino on Thu, 2010-03-25 23:30.
Hi Bill,
Do you the parents of Miguel de Villalobos and Antonia Carrillo de Sandi?
Thanks,Daniel
Hola primos y primas,
My g7's are Francisco de Alba and Maria Ygnes Ximenes, who lived on Matanzas, near Ojuelos de Jalisco, as late as 1732. They had at least 3 children:
Francisco Alba Jimenez (9DQY-HQB/Familysearch.org) is said to have married Ines de Alcaraz in Retornos de Espana en la Nueva Galicia by Mariano Gonzales Leal. There was more on this particular family in the book but I did not write it down as I was just getting info on the Pedrosas and Albas. Hopefully this is correct. My notes were written like the records we try to read from the 1600's.
In looking at my notes, his grandfather Joseph de Alba Retamosa and Catalina de Arenas aka Marin de Penalosa is sister to Juan Marin de Penalosa who took care of Joseph's testament 13 Feb 1642 and passed the following year on the 24 August. Would their parents be Juan Marin de Penalosa and Ana Herrera?
Returning to your other Francisco here is his ID (MT5W-QZ4) though only Ysidoro is listed with his wife who is known as lopes, lopez Nava, Nava, and Delgado, but her parents are not known?
Hi Simona,
Great lead! Ines de Alcaraz is likely Maria Ygnes Ximenes. “Ximenes” might be her other surname. Thanks! Would anyone else have access to the Alba chapter in Retoños? Might have to wait until the next edition comes out (any word on that, Santa?).
The parents of Juan Marin de Peñalosa and Catalina de Arenas (who was married to Joseph de Alba), were Juan Marin de Peñalosa and Catarina de Arenas, who I have as daughter of Juan Gonzalez and Luisa de Cueva; Juan Marin de Peñalosa was son of Juan Marin and Elvira Juarez de Peñalosa. I think Austin Perez might have some sourced documents on this group at Wikitree.
Ysidoro de Alba was married to Juana Maria Lopez aka Juana Maria de Nava aka Juana Maria Delgado. Mostly, she used “Nava.” She was Mestiza, sometimes Coyota, born around 1706 on Palo Alto in Cienega de Mata, hija de padres no conocidos. They had at least 6 children.
Their first child was born 1733 on Palo Alto, and then they drop off the map for 7 years, reappearing in 1740, on Jalomate, in Pinos. I have a feeling they were on San Miguel de los Albas during those 7 years. They probably had children, while there.
In 1742, they move to Lobo, in Pinos, where they remain as late as 1745. Four of their children are confirmed 25 Jul 1753 in Pinos, I don’t know which rancho.
And then I don’t see them again until 07 Jan 1761, and they’re living on Cieneguita de San Miguel, in Ags. Some of their grandchildren would be born there in the 1760’s, when it was in the jurisdiction of San Jose de Gracia Rincon de Romos.
Ysidoro de Alba died and was buried 25 Apr 1786, in Pinos, it doesn’t say which rancho.
So, they appear to move a lot between Pinos and San Miguel.
Gracias y Saludos!
Manny Diez Hermosillo
When I was in Spain some years ago I bought an "escudo" for my godfather whose surname was Perea.
Perea: Vasque surname, its origin was at Beotegui, town of Ayala, judicial jurisdiction of Amurio in Avala. (They)proved their nobility in the (military) orders of Santiago 1688, Calatrava 1678 and San Juan de Jerusalen 1579, and in the Royal Chancellery of Valladolid 1784.
Coat of arms: a shield parted in two, on the first side in a golden background, two leopards in "normal" pose and colors, on the other side, in a silver background, three blue lines each with three golden coins.
Sources: Nobiliario Español- Julio de Atienza y Vicente de Cadenas y Vicent.
Now you probably know this already but for the sake of information I would mention it, this "heraldic histories" are at best just hints of the surnames history, most of them offer no real documentation for it, many were "guessed" or "supposed" by the "cronistas", many of the "casas solares" (single place of origin) are dubious, and some coat of arms are coupled with unrelated last names.
Nonetheless this makes excellent decorations! Hope the translation helps.
Thank you so much RJQ. I just now found your translation by going directly to the website since this website often doesn't send me every post to my e-mail. Yes, I realize that these "coats of arms" are hardly relevant to people with the same surnames nowadays, but people think that these businesses that make up escudos have the whole story, but in reality they relate only to one person who got the honor from the King at the time and is not transferable like royal titles are.
My young cousin in Las Cruces New Mexico has the idea that the name Perea came from Parrot from Scotland and Ireland and she even thinks she has a castle there. She is very light-skinned as is her father and grandfather and thinks she is so because she is a descendant of those folks in Northern Europe who even have a castle there that she is anxious to see. I haven't asked her yet where she got the information. I have traced her father's (my first cousin) ancestors back to Juarez in the early 1800s only to a Juan Luciano Perea Gonzales who was born in Juarez in May of 1804. I am in the process of trying to go back farther via Family Search and Origin of New Mexico Families by Fray Angelico Chavez. I have the feeling that the Pereas (non-indigenous) came from Jalisco or Mexico City.
Emilie Garcia
Port Orchard, WA
I belive its the same origin as perez or son of pera, in West spain they
use aos insteranoad of ez.
Zambrana
Zambrano
Zambraos
Zambraes
Jose Luis Zambrano De Santiago "El Euforia".
On Wed, Nov 11, 2015 at 7:36 PM, wrote:
> Thank you so much RJQ. I just now found your translation by going directly
> to
> the website since this website often doesn't send me every post to my
> e-mail.
> Yes, I realize that these "coats of arms" are hardly relevant to people
> with
> the same surnames nowadays, but people think that these businesses that
> make
> up escudos have the whole story, but in reality they relate only to one
> person who got the honor from the King at the time and is not transferable
> like royal titles are. My young cousin in Las Cruces New Mexico has the
> idea
> that the name Perea came from Parrot from Scotland and Ireland and she even
> thinks she has a castle there. She is very light-skinned as is her father
> and
> grandfather and thinks she is so because she is a descendant of those folks
> in Northern Europe who even have a castle there that she is anxious to
> see. I
> haven't asked her yet where she got the information. I have traced her
> father's (my first cousin) ancestors back to Juarez in the early 1800s only
> to a Juan Luciano Perea Gonzales who was born in Juarez in May of 1804. I
> am
> in the process of trying to go back farther via Family Search and Origin of
> New Mexico Families by Fray Angelico Chavez. I have the feeling that the
> Pereas (non-indigenous) came from Jalisco or Mexico City. Emilie Garcia
> Port
> Orchard, WA
>
Can someone please look at this entry in the Informacion Matrimonial for Paso del Rio Del Norte for 1764, the one on the left, second one down signed by a Juan Ygnacio Provencio. I can't make heads or tales of it except for the signature, but the name is one I was looking for
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-267-11612-87536-5?cc=1521780
Thank you
Emilie
Port Orchard, WS
Emile,
The writing is difficult to read ... all I can make out is that this person
was presented as a character witness for the marriage of one Francisco
Manuel Ruiz ... Simply states that he has known the couple since children
and knows of nothing that could impeded the marriage. He stated being what
looks like 51 years of age.
Sorry, I could not be of more help ... it is difficult to transcribe as
there are several words I just can't make out ... just was able to get the
jest of the document. Maybe someone else can get more out of it.
-Angelina-
Thank you so much, Angelina, at least you could make something of it, whereas I could not read one word of it except for the signature. I thought perhaps it was his own marriage, but now I know he signed as a witness for someone else.
Emilie
> From: angelina@markleweb.com
> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2015 08:53:37 -0800
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Need Translation
>
> Emile,
>
> The writing is difficult to read ... all I can make out is that this person
> was presented as a character witness for the marriage of one Francisco
> Manuel Ruiz ... Simply states that he has known the couple since children
> and knows of nothing that could impeded the marriage. He stated being what
> looks like 51 years of age.
>
> Sorry, I could not be of more help ... it is difficult to transcribe as
> there are several words I just can't make out ... just was able to get the
> jest of the document. Maybe someone else can get more out of it.
>
> -Angelina-
>
Emile, regarding the name Perea I totally agree with Jose Luis, maybe from the Galician-Portuguese area or Catalan since Pere was a common name there which in this case is the same as Pedro. Although not impossible, Irish-Scottish connection is rather improbable. A good guess of a name's (or its variation) origin can be done with some basic statistics, for example by checking the amount of records this name appears from the earliest data available, in websites like family search this can be done easily with the provided filters, in some cases the country/region that provides the most would likely be closer or in direct relation to where names originated, newer records don't show this pattern due to a heavy migration from the colonial times onward. Also the nature of the names themselves give hints of their possible origins.
The fair complexion is been the cause of speculation for many people in México, but the case is that there were many Spanish families that were blond, blue eyed, etc. and which ancestry and origins are not from outside Spain.
For this record in you link, I don't know if you notice but the other two witnesses are also of the same last name; Manuel Bernabe Provenzio (53yrs old) and Lorenzo de Jesus Probencio (44yrs old).
During the time of "Nuevo Espana (Mexico)" era, The Real Audencia had political, civil jurisidiccion of several provinces such as Coahuila, Nayarit, Los California, Texas, Durango and I would assume
I found this website that has a collection of old paintings, sketches, maps, etc.
Hello Nuestros Ranchos Forum,
I'm looking for information on my Ancestor Blas de Mendosa here
http://www.wikitree.com/wiki/De_Mendoza-44
on an old Nuestros Ranchos post it says hes a Nati
I found Blas Mendoza (L23K-C18) on Familysearch.org, but there was not much on him and his wife though one more son named Antonio came up. I merged many of his childrens' marriages from their son Salvador with Maria Victoria Lopez Delgado (she went by maria lopez and maria Delgado) with Aries, Alba, Valades and Jaimes. I do know that the Jaimes (Jayme) married into the Pedroza's (my distant cousins from Jalisco and Aguascalientes). There is a lot more to be merged as the families had quite a number of children.
Thank you Simona. i descend from the Pedrozas and Jaimes to. Maria Manuela
Jaimes and Juan Jose Pedroza are my ancestors from there son Jose Feliciano
Pedroza here
http://www.wikitree.com/wiki/De_Pedroza-88
Danny C. Alonso
On Fri, Dec 11, 2015 at 3:11 PM, wrote:
> I found Blas Mendoza (L23K-C18) on Familysearch.org, but there was not much
> on him and his wife though one more son named Antonio came up. I merged
> many
> of his childrens' marriages from their son Salvador with Maria Victoria
> Lopez
> Delgado (she went by maria lopez and maria Delgado) with Aries, Alba,
> Valades
> and Jaimes. I do know that the Jaimes (Jayme) married into the Pedroza's
> (my
> distant cousins from Jalisco and Aguascalientes). There is a lot more to be
> merged as the families had quite a number of children.
>
Juan Joseph De Pedroza
1754-Deceased • M3C7-3YS is my cousin's 3rd grandfather. Her family tree is a work in progress(I have been working on it since October of this year) but it is public so if you enter any of the family members you do not have you would match with her on ancestry.
Hello Danny,
I haven't been active in a while, but I too descend from Blas de Mendoza
and he was a tribal chief. This article mentions his ancestors:
http://www.historiasyrecuerdosdeencarnaciondediaz.com/nobles.html
have a great day,
Ashlynn
Ashlynn,
this looks like good information. Im going to tryn and read it tonight.
thank you very much.
Danny C. Alonso
On Sun, Dec 13, 2015 at 4:32 PM, Ashlynn Castaneda <
ashlynn.castaneda@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello Danny,
>
> I haven't been active in a while, but I too descend from Blas de Mendoza
> and he was a tribal chief. This article mentions his ancestors:
>
> http://www.historiasyrecuerdosdeencarnaciondediaz.com/nobles.html
>
> have a great day,
>
> Ashlynn
Hello Nuestros Ranchos Forum,
I'm tryin to understand this section of the article on the Mendozas below and my Spanish isn't that good so I cant tell what's happening. Its talking about the descendents of the chief Xavalotl and then theyre talking about somebody named aguano and I cant tell whether Xavalot and Aguano are the same person or if theyre related or if Aguano is a child of Xavalot or he's a descendent of Xavalot or if theres no connection between them. and then theyre talking about the children of Martin Yecotl name Diego, Pedro and Baltasar Mendoza but then they also mention a Baltasar Mendoza that's married to ISabel de la Cruz Navarro and is that the same as the Baltasar Mendoza that's the son of Martin YEcotl? I cant really tell the order of all the children mentioned and who they're connected to. could someone help me figure out what's goin on
Danny C. Alonso
"Claro ejemplo del proceso de Macehualización, es el caso de los descendientes del Cacique Xahualot, antiguo Tlatoani Cazcán, quienes adquirieron el apellido de Mendoza durante la conquista, precisamente del Virrey Don Antonio de Mendoza: (7)
Para la elaboración de la Relación Geográfica del Pueblo de Teocaltiche, se congregaron en calidad de informantes a nueve naturales, entre los que destacan los Nietos del Antiguo Cacique Llamado Aquano; en el Capitulo Catorce, dichos testigos dijeron: que este pueblo y el de Nochiztlán, eran de un Indio que se llamó en lengua Caxcana Aquano, que según ellos significaba "Capitán Mayor de las Guerras," (8) por cuyo mandato y orden se hacían las guerras y se conquistaban las tierras; se le reconocía algún vasallaje por ser valiente y descendiente de gente principal. También se le recordaba por llegar a ser un hombre muy gordo.
Aquano o Aguano, según la citada relación, tuvo dos hijos de los cuales uno murió durante la conquista y el otro se nombro Yecotl, que quiere decir Quemador, a quien después de Bautizado se le nombró Don Martín; fue gobernador del Pueblo de Teocaltiche y lo mataron los indios Chichimecas en el camino de Zacatecas, donde dicen Las Palmillas, yendo a dichas minas con Diego Delgadillo, cuando en Junio de 1561 acompañaron a algunas carretas que venían de la Ciudad de México. (El Dr. Don Thomas Hillerkuss, ha estado publicando diversos tomos de su Diccionario Biográfico del Occidente Novohispano, en el que se encuentra cuantiosa información, sobre la gran mayoría de los primeros pobladores; T. II, 2001:19).
En 1584, vivían en el Pueblo de Teocaltiche, dos hijos de Martín Yecotl, a quienes se dice Don Baltasar de Mendoza que es gobernador y Don Pedro de Mendoza; también se cree que era hermano de los anteriores Don Diego de Mendoza, quien al igual que ellos fungió como testigo (Acuña Rene. Relaciones geográficas del siglo XVI: Nueva Galicia, Relación del Pueblo de Teucaltiche, 1988:293-308).
El erudito Don Ignacio Dávila Garibi, menciona que los testigos que declararon en 1584 ante Hernando Gallegos, entre tantos datos confusos y aun contradictorios, dieron algunas noticias cuya exactitud puede comprobarse mediante otros documentos de la época. Al hablar del cacique de Teocaltiche, Aguano, dijeron que éste había muerto poco antes de que Nuño de Guzmán conquistara las tierras de los Cazcanos y que tal Aguano también era cacique de Nochiztlan, cuyo sucesor, a lo que parece, fue Petacatl. Dicho Nombre es propuesto por Dávila Garibi, quien el mismo señala que lo habían olvidado los Testigo. (Dávila Garibi J. Ignacio, Bosquejo Histórico de Teocaltiche, 1945:122).
Respecto a este Petactl, Dávila señala que fue hermano de Tenamaxtli, y que fue Señor de Nocheztlán, con Jurisdicción en Teocaltech, a demás menciona los Nombres de Caciques de Pueblos circunvecinos durante la Guerra del Miztón; las jurisdicciones o cacicasgos que proporciona Dávila Garibi se contradicen con los datos publicados en 1996 por el Dr. Ernesto Juárez Frias en su libro Tenamaztle Héroe Nacional; al hablar de Tenamaztle Menciona que: "Se tiene por cierto que fué hermano de Papalotl, Cacique de Nochiztlan"; sobre Petacatl, dice que fue Señor de Jalpa y que en Noviembre de 1541, abandonó a los sitiados en el Peñol de Nochiztlan; más tarde el mismo autor menciona que Tenamaztle y el Cacique de Nochiztlán "Don Francisco de Aguilar" como segundo Jefe, atacaron Guadalajara el 28 de Septiembre de 1541(Dávila, 145:121; Juárez Frías, 1996:40,54,55 y 35, en Referencia a Fray Antonio Tello).
Cierto es que el Cacicazgo de Teocaltitech, dependió de Nochiztlán; en tal virtud la Relación Geográfica del Pueblo de Nochiztlán, efectuada en 1584 aporta datos complementarios, pues los informantes dijeron, que dicho pueblo era de un indio Nombrado Panen, y tras de este vino otro que se llamó Xavalotl. (9) "Y este Xavalot, cuando entraron los españoles en esta tierra, se volvió Cristiano y se llamó Don Miguel, y de este procedió un Don Francisco Papalotl, que lo tenía como por allegado a su casa, y este quedó en su lugar. Y, muerto el dicho Don Francisco Papalotl, le sucedió un hijo suyo que se llamaba Don Pedro de Mendoza; y éste murió, y quedó un hijo suyo, y no gobierna"; al respecto Don René Acuña, puntualiza que el bautismo de los Caciques de Nochiztlán presumiblemente tuvo lugar a fines de 1531, durante el primer amago Misionero de los Religiosos de San Francisco en esa región. (10) Dicho cacique debió morir antes de 1540, por que según consta cuando el alzamiento de los indios de la Provincia, ya era cacique de los Cazcanes su sucesor Don Francisco (Acuña René, 1988:168-169), coincidiendo estos datos con los anteriormente expuestos.
Cuando se levanta la información del Pueblo de Teocaltiche el 30 de Diciembre de 1584, firman como testigos los Nietos de Aguano, bautizados con los nombres de Baltasar, Diego y Pedro de Mendoza, Hijos de Don Martín Yecotl quien fué Gobernador de Dicho Pueblo (Acuña René, 1988:295). Al respecto de estos personajes, Dávila Garibi dejó escrito que: "en los libros Parroquiales de Teocaltiche, hay barios Bautizados de Apellido Mendoza, posibles descendientes de Aguano" (Dávila Garibi, 1945:181-183).
Gracias a los Extractos de las Confirmaciones de Teocaltiche, realizados por nuestra gran amiga México-Estadounidense, la Genealogista Mary Lou Montagna, y publicados en el "Diario Genealogico de la Sociedad Hsipánica de Historia y Busqueda de Ancestros",(11) entre otros Mendoza se han ubicado confirmados a los Hijos de Don Baltasar de Mendoza e Isabel de la Cruz Navarro, siendo uno de ellos: Thomas, Hijo de Baltasar e Isabel, Padrino Miguel Juárez, confirmado el 6 Enero de 1654 (Montagna, 1994: Vol. I, 1995: Vol. II, y 1996:Vol III).
Respecto a Don Baltasar de Mendoza y su esposa Isabel de la Cruz Navarro, he podido localizar en la Parroquia de Teocaltiche, sus respectivas actas de Defunción:
Al Margen: Theocaltiche Ysabel de la Cruz Navaro Mestissa Casada.
En el Pueblo de Theocaltiche en 3 dias del mes de Diciembre de 1698, se enterro en esta Santa Iglesia Parroquial a Ysabel de la Cruz Nabarro, mujer de Don Baltasar de Mendoza Mestizos de este Pueblo. Recibió los Santos sacramentos. No testo.
Al Margen: Theocaltiche Don Baltasar de Mendoza Mestisso viudo de Ysabel de la Cruz Nabarro.
En el Pueblo de Theocaltiche en 24 dias del mes de diciembre de 1698 años. Se enterró en esta Santa Iglesia Parroquial a Don Baltasar de Mendoza Mestisso viudo de Ysabel de la Cruz Nabarro. Recibió los Santos Sacramentos. Aunque testo nada dexo.
De esta familia, probablemente descendiente del Cacique Xahualot o Aguano, existe el matrimonio efectuado el 29 de Febrero de 1688 en Teocaltiche, de Don Thomas de Mendoza Mestizo, hijo de Don Baltasar de Mendoza e Ysabel de la Cruz; con María Sánchez, hija de padres no conocidos. Fueron sus Padrinos Juan de Aldrete y Francisca Ximenes su mujer; testigos Bernabé Morán y José de la Trinidad.
Finalmente el 1 de Febrero de 1750 Pablo Manuel de Mendoza, Mestizo, originario del Pueblo de Teocaltiche, hijo de Thomas de Mendoza Difunto, contrae matrimonio con Juana María Luxan India originaria del pueblo de Teocaltiche, hija de Andrés Quintero Luxan y de María de la Candelaria. La familia Mendoza Luxan emigró a la Jurisdicción de Aguascalientes y se establecieron en la Hacienda de San Miguel de los Alba, donde fueron testigos de los pleitos entre los pobladores de dicha Hacienda y las familias del Puesto del Sauz de los Macias, por la posesión de la Pequeña imagen de Nuestra Señora de la Encarnación."
Hello Nuestros Ranchos Forum again,
I had another question about the article on the Mendoza's, is the Thomas
Mendoza who is the son of Baltazar Mendoza and Isabel de la Cruz, is he the
father of the cacique Blas Mendoza?
Danny C. Alonso
Hi Danny,
I don't think anything is wrong with the forum, my guess is no one has any information on Blas de Mendoza and as far as there being no other posts, most people are probably busy getting ready for Christmas. Even though Don Blas de Mendoza is my 8th great grandfather, I don't really know much about him either. So far, Austin and I, have identified five children, one of which (Andrea de Mendoza), I will still need to add to his Wikitree profile. Regarding Nobles o Macehuales in Historias y Recuerdos de Encarnacion de Diaz, I do believe the Mendoza's mentioned in the article are the ancestors of the cacique don Blas de Mendoza, but, I'm not sure we will ever be able to make the connection to anyone cited in the article due to gaps in the existing records. A dispensa or a marriage record that names the parents of don Blas would have to be found and even that may not connect us to anyone in the article. I have searched for over two years for both and have yet to find them. And, in answer to your other question, yes, don Blas de Mendoza was an indigenous Chieftain, probably the last of the Caxcán chieftains, a descendant of the ancient lords of Teocaltiche and Nochistlán.
Regarding the article itself, the cacique Xahualot and Aguano I'm not sure if they're the same person, but, they may be, but, if not, they're probably related somehow. Also, they are mentioned as being alive during the Conquest, so if they're not the same, they were probably contemporaries that knew each other and were born towards the end of the 15th century.
Xahualot, named Don Miguel after his conversion was said to be the father of Don Francisco Papalotl and the Indian warrior, Tenamaztle. The Chieftain Aguano was said to be the father of Don Martin Yecotl. Don Martin Yecotl was the father of the three witnesses to the founding of Teocaltiche, Don Pedro de Mendoza, Don Diego de Mendoza, and Don Baltazar de Mendoza, who was also the indigenous governor of Teocaltiche, like his father don Martin Yecotl.
Regarding your question if the two Don Baltazar de Mendoza's are the same, I believe there's at least a generation between them, possibly more. Don Baltazar de Mendoza, son of Don Martin Yecotl, is an adult, presumably, in 1584 when he witnesses the founding of the village. Assuming that he's around 20 years old or older, the latest he probably was born would be around 1564. The other Don Baltazar de Mendoza baptized his son, Thomas de Mendoza in 1654, when the first Don Baltazar de Mendoza would've been at least 90 years old. It's possible that the second Don Baltazar de Mendoza is the son or grandson of the first Don Baltazar, but, that's just guessing. There's no real way to prove the link without the supporting documentation. It's also possible that the second Don Baltazar de Mendoza is the son or grandson of the other children of Don Martin Yecotl, Don Diego or Don Pedro de Mendoza. There's too many possibilities to speculate, although, I would say that Don Blas de Mendoza was more likely a descendant of one of these children of Don Martin Yecotl than anyone else, though, that's just my opinion.
Regarding your last question, whether, Don Baltazar de Mendoza and Ysabel de la Cruz's son, Don Thomas de Mendoza, is the father of the Cacique Don Blas de Mendoza, I was going to say no, but, I recently discovered a marriage for Andrea de Mendoza in Teocaltiche on 31 Jan, 1751, a child of Blas de Mendoza, which caused me to revise Blas de Mendoza's date of birth, and, now I would say it's a small possibility. Don Thomas de Mendoza and María Sánchez married in 1688 and I estimate the birth of the Cacique don Blas de Mendoza to be around 1710, so technically, if Thomas de Mendoza's wife, María Sánchez was young enough in 1688, she could be the mother of don Blas de Mendoza, but again, there are plenty of other possible parents of Don Blas de Mendoza.
Here are a few other Mendoza's that I came across that also are in the same timeframe to be the parents of Don Blas de Mendoza:
Don Baltazar de Mendoza and Theresa de la Cruz, Indios, had a daughter Doña Jacinta de Mendoza that married in 1733, making her probably the same age as the Cacique, Don Blas de Mendoza:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:939L-Q2CM-F
Don Nicolas de Mendoza and Juana de Mendoza, Indios, baptized a son named Baltazar de Mendoza in 1709, also making him about the same age as Don Blas de Mendoza:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:939L-QJSS-C3
Don Antonio de Mendoza and Catharina Lucia, Indios, had a son Pedro Domingo de Mendoza that married in 1743, making Don Antonio de Mendoza and Catharina Lucia old enough to be the parents of Don Blas de Mendoza. Catharina Lucia is also Madrina to Baltazar, son of Don Nicolas de Mendoza and Juana de Mendoza above.
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:939L-7SSM-F8
All of these other Mendoza's are probably interrelated and connected in someway to the Cacique Don Blas de Mendoza, but, again, there may never be a way to determine exactly how the other Mendoza's are connected or who his parents are.
One other thing that I've noticed is that Don Blas de Mendoza and his children are never referred to as Indios and only one child have I ever found that was actually referred to as a Mestizo. Almost, always he and his children are referred to as Españoles, I'm not sure if that's out of respect for his status as Cacique or because he actually wasn't fully indian. I did notice most of the Mendoza's that are given the title of "Don" are listed as Indios, but, occasionally one will be listed as Mestizo, like Don Thomas de Mendoza that married María Sánchez. Again, I'm not sure what that means, but it may be a clue that the parents of Don Blas de Mendoza may not have been entirely Indian or again, it may just be out of respect for his status as chieftain.
I believe this is the defuncion of Cacique Don Blas de Mendoza, here listed as Juan Blas de Mendoza, and again referred to as Español:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:939L-7M99-QN
Hope this helps. Good luck Danny.
Chris
Does anybody know if there is something wrong with the Forum? it doesnt
look like anybody is posting or responding
Danny C. Alonso
Hi Danny,
I've been meaning to respond to your post but I haven't had much free time lately and I suspect is the case with many of our Nuestros Ranchos friends.
Regarding the information on the 'Historias y Recuerdos de Encarnacion de Diaz' website that you included in your previous post the author, by his own admission, provides provides an uncertain history of cacique Aquano aka Xahualot and his descendants. The uncertainty is due to the limited records and contradictions in the records that do exist. Unfortunately this has been a recurring problem that I have encountered when researching my native american and african ancestors. Imprecise as it may be the author provides us with the following genealogy for us to consider and further research:
Cacique Aquano o Aguano which in the Cazcan language means "major captain of war." This Aquano may the same as Xahualot. Aquano had two sons one who died during the wars of the conquest and Yecotl who when baptized received the name of don Martin.
Yecotl who governed Teocaltiche had 3 sons don Pedro de Mendoza, don Diego de Mendoza and don Baltasar de Mendoza. Don Baltasar like his father also governed Teocaltiche. I believe that 'governed' as used in the website means that they were Caciques (leaders) of the 'indio' population in Teocaltiche.
Christopher Cuellar and I researched the family of Blas de Mendoza but could not find a link with Blas to Baltasar de Mendoza and his wife Isabel de la Cruz Navarro, who we suspect are his parents. Chris did locate the burial record for Blas which is the second entry in the following image:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:939L-7M99-QN?wc=3JF6-C68%3A1731…
I'll post here if I find any additional information.
Happy Holidays
Austin Perez
Austin and Chris this is great information. Thank you so much. This helps
me out a lot to know all of this even if I cant be 100% sure, I'm glad I
know this much now. it gives me a much better idea of how Blas MEndoza
connects to Mendoza's in the story. so Baltasar is probably the connection
then.
Danny C. Alonso
Hi Danny,
Yes, I agree with Austin that Baltazar de Mendoza and Ysabel de la Cruz are the origin of our Blas de Mendoza, I should've been more clear about that, I just wanted to let you know there could be other possibilities, but I personally believe that our Blas de Mendoza descends from Baltazar de Mendoza and Ysabel de la Cruz. Whether they're the parents or grandparents, I'm not sure, but, I believe they make more sense than any other possibilities. Also, I believe the Baltazar de Mendoza married to Ysabel de la Cruz Navarro is the probable grandson or great grandson of Don Martin Yecotl.
Chris
From: Danny Alonso
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2015 8:01 PM
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Blas de Mendoza
Austin and Chris this is great information. Thank you so much. This helps
me out a lot to know all of this even if I cant be 100% sure, I'm glad I
know this much now. it gives me a much better idea of how Blas MEndoza
connects to Mendoza's in the story. so Baltasar is probably the connection
then.
Danny C. Alonso
If you mean you aren't getting the posts via your e-mail, I sometimes don't get all, just some, don't know why, but you can view all posts if you sign into the website.
Emilie
Port Orchard, WA
> Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2015 20:56:38 -0800
> From: dcalonso97@gmail.com
> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Blas Mendoza
>
> Does anybody know if there is something wrong with the Forum? it doesnt
> look like anybody is posting or responding
>
> Danny C. Alonso
Is Juan Moscoso y Sandoval related to Baltasar Moscoso y Sandoval? Are they brothers?
You are hereTheniente Capitan Protector 1727 and Alcalde 1732