Surname Spelling Variations/ Indigenous Ancestry

Arturo,
Is Saucedo, a spelling variation for Salsedo/Salcedo/Salzedo?
I would be interested in reading what you have on the names that the
"indigenous," individuals used, absent of a surname...
On one of the lines that I am researching I have come across a Maria De La

Comentarios

Comentario

Arturo,
Is Saucedo, a spelling variation for Salsedo/Salcedo/Salzedo?
I would be interested in reading what you have on the names that the
"indigenous," individuals used, absent of a surname...
On one of the lines that I am researching I have come across a Maria De La
Candelaria Salzedo Santa Maria bapt. Feb 1736 Tlaltenango De Sanchez Roman,
daughter of Joseph De Santa Maria y Juana Salzedo. Joseph's father is
mentioned as a Diego Thomas, married to Francisca Thomasa Santa Maria on 17
June 1710. Diego's parents are noted as being Juan Francisco y Ana
Agustina ... would this be an example of the naming practice of our
"indigenous," ancestors? Is Santa Maria considered a surname?
Pat Silva Corbera

Comentario

this is my take. Take a name and then add bad, average, and good
handwriting. Add primative writing equipment, paper, ink. Add sometimes
to little ink or to much. Add smudges or words from the previous pages
too heavy ink inprinted on another word.

I can visusalize very easily Saucedo being a spelling variation, Not
officially though.

Take the small "L" and as you write in a hurry shorten it and take out
the space in the loop and then add a hand cramp because of soo much
writing so that it looks like an "i" and then another "i" accidently as
you race on through the page and now you have a small "u." and bingo you
have "Saucedo."

So with a good imagination for the possibilities you can see how a weary
and overworked scribe could easily produce something that easily looks
like "Saucedo" when he actually meant "Salcedo." But once the name gets
interpreted as "Saucedo" maybe it sticks.

Oh and my G grandmother and then my GG grandfather and my GGG
grandfather and then my GGGG grandfather all wore the surname "Santa Maria."

Antonia Santa Maria and Lucio Santa Maria and Felipe Santa Maria and
then Jose Salome Santa Maria (all from the ranchos around Tepetongo:
Salitral, Salitrillo, etc.)

joseph

papagaia2 wrote:

> Arturo,
>Is Saucedo, a spelling variation for Salsedo/Salcedo/Salzedo?
>I would be interested in reading what you have on the names that the
>"indigenous," individuals used, absent of a surname...
>On one of the lines that I am researching I have come across a Maria De La
>Candelaria Salzedo Santa Maria bapt. Feb 1736 Tlaltenango De Sanchez Roman,
>daughter of Joseph De Santa Maria y Juana Salzedo. Joseph's father is
>mentioned as a Diego Thomas, married to Francisca Thomasa Santa Maria on 17
>June 1710. Diego's parents are noted as being Juan Francisco y Ana
>Agustina ... would this be an example of the naming practice of our
>"indigenous," ancestors? Is Santa Maria considered a surname?
>Pat Silva Corbera
>
>
>

Comentario

My great-great grandmother was surnamed Salcedo and she came from
Jerez. I'm not sure who her parents are. Marge:)
On Oct 14, 2006, at 5:25 PM, Joseph Puentes wrote:

> this is my take. Take a name and then add bad, average, and good
> handwriting. Add primative writing equipment, paper, ink. Add sometimes
> to little ink or to much. Add smudges or words from the previous pages
> too heavy ink inprinted on another word.
>
> I can visusalize very easily Saucedo being a spelling variation, Not
> officially though.
>
> Take the small "L" and as you write in a hurry shorten it and take out
> the space in the loop and then add a hand cramp because of soo much
> writing so that it looks like an "i" and then another "i" accidently as
> you race on through the page and now you have a small "u." and bingo
> you
> have "Saucedo."
>
> So with a good imagination for the possibilities you can see how a
> weary
> and overworked scribe could easily produce something that easily looks
> like "Saucedo" when he actually meant "Salcedo." But once the name gets
> interpreted as "Saucedo" maybe it sticks.
>
> Oh and my G grandmother and then my GG grandfather and my GGG
> grandfather and then my GGGG grandfather all wore the surname "Santa
> Maria."
>
> Antonia Santa Maria and Lucio Santa Maria and Felipe Santa Maria and
> then Jose Salome Santa Maria (all from the ranchos around Tepetongo:
> Salitral, Salitrillo, etc.)
>
> joseph
>
>
> papagaia2 wrote:
>
>> Arturo,
>> Is Saucedo, a spelling variation for Salsedo/Salcedo/Salzedo?
>> I would be interested in reading what you have on the names that the
>> "indigenous," individuals used, absent of a surname...
>> On one of the lines that I am researching I have come across a Maria
>> De La
>> Candelaria Salzedo Santa Maria bapt. Feb 1736 Tlaltenango De Sanchez
>> Roman,
>> daughter of Joseph De Santa Maria y Juana Salzedo. Joseph's father is
>> mentioned as a Diego Thomas, married to Francisca Thomasa Santa Maria
>> on 17
>> June 1710. Diego's parents are noted as being Juan Francisco y Ana
>> Agustina ... would this be an example of the naming practice of our
>> "indigenous," ancestors? Is Santa Maria considered a surname?
>> Pat Silva Corbera
>>
>>
>>

Comentario

My mother's brother married a lady whose surname was Salcido. I have not been able to trace their patriarch Nepomuceno Salcido. They lived in Mesilla, New Mexico.

Emilie
----- Original Message -----
From: M. Vallazza
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 4:24 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Surname SpellingVariations/ Indigenous Ancestry

My great-great grandmother was surnamed Salcedo and she came from
Jerez. I'm not sure who her parents are. Marge:)
On Oct 14, 2006, at 5:25 PM, Joseph Puentes wrote:

> this is my take. Take a name and then add bad, average, and good
> handwriting. Add primative writing equipment, paper, ink. Add sometimes
> to little ink or to much. Add smudges or words from the previous pages
> too heavy ink inprinted on another word.
>
> I can visusalize very easily Saucedo being a spelling variation, Not
> officially though.
>
> Take the small "L" and as you write in a hurry shorten it and take out
> the space in the loop and then add a hand cramp because of soo much
> writing so that it looks like an "i" and then another "i" accidently as
> you race on through the page and now you have a small "u." and bingo
> you
> have "Saucedo."
>
> So with a good imagination for the possibilities you can see how a
> weary
> and overworked scribe could easily produce something that easily looks
> like "Saucedo" when he actually meant "Salcedo." But once the name gets
> interpreted as "Saucedo" maybe it sticks.
>
> Oh and my G grandmother and then my GG grandfather and my GGG
> grandfather and then my GGGG grandfather all wore the surname "Santa
> Maria."
>
> Antonia Santa Maria and Lucio Santa Maria and Felipe Santa Maria and
> then Jose Salome Santa Maria (all from the ranchos around Tepetongo:
> Salitral, Salitrillo, etc.)
>
> joseph
>
>
> papagaia2 wrote:
>
>> Arturo,
>> Is Saucedo, a spelling variation for Salsedo/Salcedo/Salzedo?
>> I would be interested in reading what you have on the names that the
>> "indigenous," individuals used, absent of a surname...
>> On one of the lines that I am researching I have come across a Maria
>> De La
>> Candelaria Salzedo Santa Maria bapt. Feb 1736 Tlaltenango De Sanchez
>> Roman,
>> daughter of Joseph De Santa Maria y Juana Salzedo. Joseph's father is
>> mentioned as a Diego Thomas, married to Francisca Thomasa Santa Maria
>> on 17
>> June 1710. Diego's parents are noted as being Juan Francisco y Ana
>> Agustina ... would this be an example of the naming practice of our
>> "indigenous," ancestors? Is Santa Maria considered a surname?
>> Pat Silva Corbera
>>
>>
>>

Comentario

Pat:

Saucedo could be an alteration of Salcedo, but in Tlaltenango the name usually appears as Saucedo, but I have also seen it changed to Salcedo or Salzedo. I believe the name is derived from a tree called Sauz which is common in arid parts of Mexico and the U.S... some type of willow I believe. It plays a vital part in Mexican mythology, as it was the tree that Quetzalcoatl turned into as part of the creation.

ENTONCES, LOS CUATRO HERMANOS CREARON A CUATRO HOMBRES; ATEMOC, ITZACOATL, ITZMALIZA Y TENOCH. LUEGO ENTRARON EN LA TIERRA Y EMERGIERON EN LOS CUATRO PUNTOS CARDINALES, CADA UNO CONVERTIDO EN UN ARBOL DIFERENTE; TEZCATLIPOCA SE CONVIRTIO EN EL TEZCACUAHUITL, ARBOL ESPEJO. Y QUETZALCOATL SE CONVIRTIO EN EL QUETZALHUEXOCH, SAUZ HERMOSO.

I have seen it often used by indigenous people, as with other names that refer to common natural elements such as Rio, Campo, Flores, etc.

Santa Maria is a very typical indigeous name. Often, they would be given generic Christian-alluding names to demonstrate that they had been baptized such as de la Cruz or de Dios or de Santa Maria, etc. The fact that most of the surnames in that branch are of that variety and that so many others have no surnames would lead me to bet these are all indigenous people.

In 1710 in Tlaltenango, there were very few Spaniards living in the "towns" other than Tlaltenango. If you find that these people are from Cicacalco or Tepechitlan or Teocaltiche or El Teul, etc. it is likely that they are indigenous. Most of the Spaniards lived in Ranchos or estancias such as Coculiten, etc.

research Digest, Vol 9, Issue 11 oficialias

An oficialia is an office as in oficialia #1, #2 , #3, etc of the
Registro Civil.

Some cities have many, others a couple. It all depends on the number of
inhabitants they have to serve.

elvira

Comentarios

Comentario

Thank you, Elvira,

Emilie
----- Original Message -----
From: campezina@juno.com
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Friday, October 13, 2006 5:18 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] research Digest, Vol 9,Issue 11 Re: oficialias

An oficialia is an office as in oficialia #1, #2 , #3, etc of the
Registro Civil.

Some cities have many, others a couple. It all depends on the number of
inhabitants they have to serve.

elvira

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Oficialia

Arturo,

You've been explaining the various government entities in Mexico: In the excerpt from the FHC Library Catalog (below) of films available for Valparaiso, Zacatecas, I see OFICIALIA designated for some of the nearby communities. What is meant by "oficialia"?

Maternal Surnames

On my mother's side I am the fourth generation to use the maternal suname.

Because my great grandfather was the product of rape.

Since 1858 our family has been proud to bear the name of the 14 year-old victim of that rape, Maria de las Nieves Porras.

Civil Censuses in Mexico

Thanks so much for the information, Arturo. This affirms the need to search maternal names just as carefully. I believ I've read that it wasn't unheard of for a husband to take his wife's maiden surname, if she was the sole heir to land or fortune. Alice Blake

Comentarios

Comentario

I have found in my research several lineages where the maternal names survived for up to three generations. In some cases it was because the father did not have a surname (i.e. was indigenous) and thus the maternal one was given to the child by default. In such cases, the husband sometimes appears with his wife's name as well.

Iin other cases it appears to be that the maternal side had the land and prestige and was perhaps lacking of male heirs so the children took on the mother's name in order to propagate that name.

Then there is a peculiar tradition of naming women after grandmothers whereby they are given the entire name so if the grandmother was named Maria Saucedo, the mother was named Ana Ortiz and the father Lorenzo Miramontes, the daugher would be named not Maria Miramontes and not even Maria Ortiz, but Maria Saucedo just like her grandmother, thus she would carry her mother's mother's maiden name.

The term maiden name in Latin America is somewhat redundant because women don't really change their names, thus they have a name in their maiden lives that remains their name in their married lives. In modern times the practice of attaching a "de" husdband's name after their own has become commonplace, but that is not considered the woman's name.

ARCHIVO HISTÓRICO DE AGUASCALIENTES

Dear Alice:
EL ARCHIVO HISTÓRICO DE AGUASCALIENTES concentra documentación e información
desde el año de 1592 hasta 1930, y está dividido en fondos, series y
secciones. Aproximadamente un 70% se encuentra clasificado, todo está

Los Oñate en Aguascalientes

Miembros de la familia Oñate vivieron en Aguascalientes. Doña María de Oñate
viuda de Andrés López de la Cerda, vendió en en el año de 1743 a Diego de
Medina y Lomas, una mulata esclava llamada Nicolasa de la O. El texto

Comentarios

Comentario

Muchicimas gracias, Felipe. Disculpame, pero no puedo comunicarme bien en Espanol. I'm sure that your English literacy is better than mine in Spanish!
My mother's maiden name was Onate, and this information may help locate family, as they were said to have a hacienda in Aguascalientes. Direct family members were still living in Aguascalientes, Agua. as late as the 1960's. How can I access el Archivo Historico de Aguascalientes? Again, thank you so much for the information. Alice Blake

--- pipo957@hotmail.com wrote:

From: "felipe reyes"
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Los Oñate en Aguascalientes
Date: Sat, 07 Oct 2006 20:24:02 +0000

Alice:
Miembros de la familia Oñate vivieron en Aguascalientes. Doña María de Oñate
viuda de Andrés López de la Cerda, vendió en en el año de 1743 a Diego de
Medina y Lomas, una mulata esclava llamada Nicolasa de la O. El texto
riginal del contrato de compra-venta dice: " la esclava es de color cocho,
buena gracia y de 40 años de edad, en un precio y cuantía de 240 pesos de
oro común". La fuente documental se puede consultar en el Archivo
Histrórico de Aguascalientes. Fondo de Protocolos Notariales. Siglo XVIII:
Caja 15, Expediente 3 y Caja 14 , Expediente 5.
Felipe Reyes Romo

_________________________________________________________________
Prodigy/MSN Search. Todo lo que buscas ahora más rapido
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Pánuco, Zacatecas

Isn't somebody researching this area?:

Title
Padrones, 1807-1922

Authors
Iglesia Católica () (Main Author)

Notes
Microfilm de manuscritos en el archivo diocesano de Zacatecas.
Pánuco es una vicaría de Veta Grande, Zacatecas.

Comentarios

Comentario

Yes, Joseph; I'm definitely interested. San Juan Bautista, Panuco, Zac. 04/20/1882 is the only firm data I've found to date on FHC films. Sorry, I'm not that savvy. What exactly are padrones? Is this census data, church data, or both? Please inform me. Thanks, Alice Blake

--- makas@nc.rr.com wrote:

From: makas_nc
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Pánuco, Zacatecas
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2006 07:38:29 -0700 (PDT)

Isn't somebody researching this area?:

Title
Padrones, 1807-1922

Authors
Iglesia Católica () (Main Author)

Notes
Microfilm de manuscritos en el archivo diocesano de Zacatecas.
Pánuco es una vicaría de Veta Grande, Zacatecas.
Membership lists of the parish of Pánuco, Zacatecas.

Subjects
México, Zacatecas, Pánuco - Census

Format
Manuscript (On Film)

Language
Spanish

Publication
Salt Lake City, Utah : Filmado por la Sociedad Genealógica de Utah, 1987

Physical
1 rollo de microfilm ; 35 mm.

Film Notes
Note - Location [Film]
Padrones 1807-1840, 1864, 1878, 1889, 1922 (no hay orden) - FHL INTL Film [ 1464049 ]

© 2002 Intellectual Reserve, Inc. All rights reserved.

Comentario

Alice:

Padrones are censuses. In Mexico, the Church would take parrish censuses every generation or so. The ones that I have seen have listings of people's names by locality along with their ages and profession as well as relationship to the head of the household. Very useful but not indexed so you have to know precisely where the people you are looking for lived or be willing to wheel through thousands of names to find your needle in the haystack.

Comentario

AliceBB wrote:

>Yes, Joseph; I'm definitely interested. San Juan Bautista, Panuco, Zac. 04/20/1882 is the only firm data I've found to date on FHC films. Sorry, I'm not that savvy. What exactly are padrones? Is this census data, church data, or both? Please inform me. Thanks, Alice Blake
>
>
It is a single film: 1464049 and has the census' listed below for the
Panuco area. Probably any Barrios of the town and the ranchos nearby.

joseph

>
>Membership lists of the parish of Pánuco, Zacatecas.
>
>Subjects
>México, Zacatecas, Pánuco - Census
>
>Film Notes
>Note - Location [Film]
>Padrones 1807-1840, 1864, 1878, 1889, 1922 (no hay orden) - FHL INTL Film [ 1464049 ]
>
>
>
>

Salt Lake Next Week

Everybody and anybody who is headed to Salt Lake next week, can you
please email me privately and let me know where you will be staying
and how we can get in touch? It would be nice to organize a Nuestros

Comentarios

Comentario

Hi Arturo!

Here are the cell phone numbers for those going to SLC:

Kitty Cortez - xxx-xxx-xxxx
Rich Cortez - xxx-xxx-xxxx
Lydia Corona - xxx-xxx-xxxx
Mickey Garcia - xxx-xxx-xxxx
Josie T. Trevino-xxx-xxx-xxxx

Rich and Kitty will be staying with a sister. Mickey and I will be at
the Best Western Plaza Inn as well as Lydia Corona and a friend of
hers. These are all that are going. Several others had expressed an
interest in the beginning but then had other commitments and could not
make the trip. Jonathan Walker will be joining us since he lives near
SLC. We will definitely get together once we all arrive so we can
visit with each other. Rich and Kitty will be at the library on Monday
morning at 8am as well as Mickey and I. I am in Houston right now at
Mickey's house and we will be flying out early Sunday morning for SLC
arriving before noon. I had to be in Houston this week and will fly
from here instead of San Antonio.

I plan to hit the Zacatecas records as soon as I get to the library on
Monday. If you need to get in touch with us, feel free to send an e-
mail today or tomorrow (Fri or Sat) since I will not be taking my
laptop to SLC. You can always contact us via cell phone also.

Mickey says hello! We are both looking forward to meeting you and the
rest of the Rancheros in person!

See you in SLC!

Josie

PS....I am sending you a copy of what I received from Rich and Kitty
regarding the weather in SLC....in a separate message, ok?

----- Original Message -----
From: Arturo Ramos
Date: Friday, October 6, 2006 9:38 am
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Salt Lake Next Week
To: announce@nuestrosranchos.org

> Everybody and anybody who is headed to Salt Lake next week, can you
> please email me privately and let me know where you will be staying
> and how we can get in touch? It would be nice to organize a Nuestros
> Ranchos dinner or lunch or something of the sort.
>
> I look forward to seeing you all there.

Comentario

Hi Lavaniya!

That would be great if you can join us~!!!! If you want to send me
your cell phone number I can call you.....or you can check with
us .....my cell # is 210-602-7979 or you can go by the list i sent out
yesterday. We would love to meet you!!!

Josie

----- Original Message -----
From: chula801
Date: Friday, October 6, 2006 10:12 pm
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] getting together in SLC
To: announce@lists.nuestrosranchos.org

>
> Hi,
> I also live near Salt Lake and would love to know when everyone is
> getting together so I can see if maybe I can make it. Thanks!
> Lavaniya Jimenez

Padrones de Panuco

Hello Arturo, I've researched the 1930 census for Villa Garcia and Vetagrande, Zacatecas. That was not church related, right? Or is this the same data. If it isn't, how do I acquire it? Thanks so much, Alice Blake

Comentarios

Comentario

Alice:

I think that beginning with the Porfirian government and certainly after the Mexican Revolution, the state developed its own civil registries and census functions and attempted to usurp these functions all together from the Church.

I would imagine that a census from 1930 by the state would be one of the first ones for that area. I know that in Totatiche, the post-Revolutionary government did a land census around 1920 that is quite good. I found out through that that the little land owned by my father's family in Mexico actually was his grandmother's, which she had inherited from her father.

That then led to me to research inheritance patterns and as it turns out, just like surnames, land did not transfer down the male side only... Lots of powerful women inheriting land, especially in the earlier days of the colony.

Some spirits!

Some months ago a boy from my neighbor´s throw some rocks from his second floor terrace to my second floor roof. I yelled asking him to stop, he not even turn his head, then I manaced to tell his mom and it worked! The past weekend he did it again but with wooden blocks (tiny blocks) so I went to his door, his grandma granted me to come in, so I did. We had a little chat and she was nice listening to me and asking me question about my family and I ask about hers. Then I dropped it

General Digest, Vol 9, Issue 5

As far as the Legend of the Hacienda de la Yegua Rusa, I heard a
similar legend about one of my ancestors too--not the Martin del Campos
either. It was totally false, as I found this ancestor's baptism record

Comentarios

Comentario

Hi all! you could read some about it in Tepatitlan, Jal. in the Enciclopedia De Los Municipios De Mexico, just write tepatitlan, jalisco in your web searcher. We, the alteños could be greek decendants, not french.

Irma GomezLucero escribió: As far as the Legend of the Hacienda de la Yegua Rusa, I heard a
similar legend about one of my ancestors too--not the Martin del Campos
either.

---------------------------------
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