Dr.mt

Research Digest, Vol 49, Issue 15

Published by stanleyalucero –
Forums
Genealogy Research

I will be presenting at the Milpitas conference on March 6 at the Sheraton Hotel.  Will you be there?

Comments

Published by oldcar53 – Mon, 2010-02-15 18:45 | Permalink

Comment

Stanley,

We look forward to meeting you and to your presentation next Month.

I do plan on being there, see you real soon!!

Alicia,

San Jose,
Calif

________________________________
From: "stanley.lucero@comcast.net"
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Mon, February 15, 2010 3:16:11 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Research Digest, Vol 49, Issue 15

I will be presenting at the Milpitas conference on March 6 at the Sheraton Hotel. Will you be there?

Juan Brito and Antonia Ursula Duran

Published by stanleyalucero –
Forums
Genealogy Research

Jose de Leon Brito was a "vecino of Zacatecas and a retail merchant." After the death of his wife, Antonia Ursula Duran, and on the request of his mother in law Polonia, on 3 May 1679 he left money t

Comments

Published by oldcar53 – Sun, 2010-02-14 16:30 | Permalink

Comment

Stanley,

Your Duran ancestors ring a bell and while I don't have the records in hand, I have run across some of these names in my research of Nochistlan, Zacatecas. I don't know if they're the same Duranes, but I have seen Polonia Duran and Antonia Duran. I'm sure there are many in different municipalities of Zacatecas. I'll look in my records.

Alicia,
San Jose, Calif

________________________________
From: "stanley.lucero@comcast.net"
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Sat, February 6, 2010 1:02:36 PM
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Juan Brito and Antonia Ursula Duran

Jose de Leon Brito was a "vecino of Zacatecas and a retail merchant." After the death of his wife, Antonia Ursula Duran, and on the request of his mother in law Polonia, on 3 May 1679 he left money to his grandchildren because he was going to remarry. Ursula Duran was the daughter of Juan Juarez [deceased] and Polonia Duran.

Where can I look to find baptism, marriage and death records for this family?

I think that Jose de Leon Brito and Juan Brito are the same person married to Antonia Ursula Duran

Juan de Leon Brito and his wife Antonia Ursula Duran lived in the barrio of Analco in Santa Fe, New Mexico before the 1680 Pueblo Revolt.

His son Juan de Leon Brito and Maria de los Reyes Granillo had the following children: Maria Magdalena; Juana Gregoria;and Brigida [all born in Santa Fe].

The information about the money he left to his family comes from
Archivo Historico de Zacatecas, Fondo: Notarias, Notario: Felipe de Espinosa, Caja: 3, Libro: 9, Ano: 1679, no. 87 and no. 89.

Can I access these two documents online?

I found this information at the website for the New Mexico Office of the State Historian: http://www.newmexicohistory.org/filedetails.php?fileID=22200

Juan Brito and Antonia Ursula Duran are my eight great grandparents

Stanley A. Lucero
Madera, California

ENCONTRE NOMBRES

Published by hpro49 –
Forums
Genealogy Research

Nombres encontrados en actas:
Acta de matrimonio juzgado 1 año 1917 libro 492 foja 107
México, D.F. 14 de nov. De 1917
Adalberto Perez Lete originario de Zacatecas de 42 años viudo

Ruiz de Esparza

Published by Bill Figueroa –
Forums
Genealogy Research

First off, Francisco Esparsa (est. 1828) married Maria de la Luz Avila. There marriage should of happened during late 1840's-early and mid 1850's. Next Matiana Esparsa married Pablo Vasquez during the 1850's.

Comments

Published by vr – Wed, 2010-02-10 01:09 | Permalink

Comment

Bill a few questions:

1. How are you related to us in La Luz?
2. Have you ever been to La Luz?
3. Who was Francisco Esparza's parents?
4. Which Esparza married into the Camino family?

Thanks in advance,

Victor Renteria

Comment

Victor,

I think your question was intended for Daniel, and not for me. As far as I
know, I'm NOT related to the Caminos who lived in Hda. de La Luz. Francisco
Esparza was a common name, I have 35 of them in my database. I have two in
my direct line, my 5th GGrandfather who married Josepha de Ulloa in 1703,
and my 3rd GG (grandson of the first) who married Gertrudis de Escobedo 100
years later, in 1803. They both used the surname Ruiz de Esparza. The
first one of the two was the great-grandson of Lope Ruiz de Esparza, and the
second a grandson of the first. As far as I know, neither one had a
connection with the Camino family from Hda. de la Luz. The first one lived
and died in Aguascalientes, and the second in Rincón de Romos.

Saludos,
Bill

Comment

Hi Victor,
The Ruiz de Esparza family was huge! You can find them almost anywhere in Mexico today.It started with Lope Ruiz de Esparza who was born in Spain. He had several kids and from theirthey poured out of Aguascalientes into Jalisco, Zacatecas, Chihuahua from there the rest is history.The Caminos arrived in la Hacienda in 1897. They had come from Calvillo originally, they arrived in Calvillo (probably commuted much) from there and Aguascalientes. I find first mention of them in Calvillo in 1849 when Eugenio I Camino married Maria de los Dolores Martinez de Sotomayor.
As far a Esparza goes...several lines married into our family, the main being Simon Ruiz de Esparzafrom Teocaltiche, his descendants moved to Calvillo then to La Luz. What Francisco are you lookingfor? The other one being Cristobal Manuel Ruiz de Esparza from the city of Aguascalientes. Then I foundanother Antonio Ruiz de Esparza whose descendants made their way to La Luz.
-Daniel
P.S. Elodia is descedant of Simon Ruiz de Esparza. I think it was Elodia's generation (same asmy great grandma where this line started dropping the Ruiz. I have church records of the early 1900swhere Ruiz is included but registro civil says only Esparza.

_________________________________________________________________
Hotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft.
http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469230/direct/01/

Comment

Daniel,

Simon Ruiz de Esparza connects us too? When is he connected to Francisco Ruiz de Esparza. What I'm trying to get is how, when, where, etc. are you, Bill and I connected throught the Esparzas? Where did it start and what lines branched off, etc., etc. It's very fascinating to see how this comes out.

Victor Renteria

Comment

Hello Bill,

Actually my questions were intended for you. Unless, I'm not understanding how this forum works, but it looks to me the following post was posted by you. That is why I was wondering how you were related to the people of La Luz. I appologize if i'm confusing you with Daniel.

YOU WROTE: Ruiz de Esparza

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

By Bill Figueroa - Posted on 26 January 2007

First off, Francisco Esparsa (est. 1828) married Maria de la Luz Avila. There marriage should of happened during late 1840's-early and mid 1850's. Next Matiana Esparsa married Pablo Vasquez during the 1850's. In Huanusco the surname Esparsa as I have seen it and what I've been told is Esparza isn't a common surname in that place they all have a connection in La Luz I have several other Esparsa lines that belong to my 4th and 3rd cousins and so forth and should have a connection to ours. Because the Esparsa migrated to Huanusco in a different Hacienda called El Saucillo and then came to our Hacienda "La Luz" after an Esparsa married into the Camino family. This moving to La Luz happened during the 1890's. Some other Esparsa lines are as follows Biburcio Esparsa (1850) who married Aniceta Renteria, Crisanta Esparsa (1860) who married Ramon Lopez, Jose Esparsa (1848) who married Marta Ortiz, Marcelo Esparsa (1873) who married Ysidra Garcia Frausto, Maria Paula Esparsa who married Marcelino Reveles, and Petra Esparsa who married Jacinto Vargas. Im related to most of the Esparsa spouses (i.e. Garcia, Renteria, Lopez etc.) but I also do know all these other Esparsa lines should be related at some point. Their ancestors did come from Calvillo, Ags. Is there any books about the Esparsas? Thanks. Any help or advice is appreciated.

Comment

Hello Victor,

It may sound like I wrote that message in 2007, but I can assure you that it
was not me. It is possible that I entered the discussion at some point in
time, but I have no connection to the Esparzas that migrated to Huanusco and
the ranchos in that vicinity. Sounds to me like something Daniel Mendez
would have written.

Bill Figueroa

Comment

Bill,

So that makes us distant relatives, I understand my GGrandmother Elodia Esparza came from la Villita, she was born 1900 and died in 2002 in la luz. One of my uncles visited his cousin there, the family is well established there.

My GGrandmother Elodia Esparza married Romulo Renteria. I remember she was telling me how my GGrandfather Romulo and her met. He was on his horse and dumped some leña in front of her, if she picked it up that meant they were boy/girl friend. So she picked it up and the rest was history.

Real Machos back then I guess.

Anyway, my other question is where/from whome we connect on the Esparza line?

Victor Renteria

Published by Bill Figueroa – Fri, 2007-01-26 18:00 | Permalink

Comment

Daniel,

Before Francisco Esparza and María de la Luz Avila moved to Huanusco, they had at least one child. María Esparza Avila was baptized on 5 April 1863 in San Jose, Calvillo, Aguascalientes. Check Batch No. C604351 Bautizos 1863-1870 Source Call No. 0635770. I did not find any others.

Bill

Comment

Hello Bill,

I'm a descendent of Jose Espars(z)a, my g.grandmother was Elodia Esparza Sanchez (his grand daughter), do you know where I can find his parents, siblings, etc.?

Where they at one point Ruiz de Esparza or Ruis De Esparsa?

Daniel sent me my g.grandmother's batism and shows "Esparza"

Thank You!

Victor Renteria

Comment

Hello Victor,

Unfortunately, I don't have much information about recent Esparza
generations. You should ask your parents and grandparents for any
information they may have about their own parents and other ancestors. If
your parents are not living, check family documents that may identify BOTH
of your grandparents and great-grandparents, where they were born, got
married, had children, and where they died and were buried. Who was Elodia
Esparsa Sanchez's husband? Where were your grandparents married? Jose
Esparza is a fairly common name, so I'm afraid we cannot go back any further
without more specific information. Esparza and Rentería are surnames that
have been around Aguascalientes since the early 1600s. You have to work
backwards, from yourself to your parents, from your parents to your
grandparents, etc. After that the search becomes a little easier. The best
sources are church and civil records, final wills and testaments, etc. Any
idea where your family originated? Were your grandparents from
Aguascalientes, Jalisco or Zacatecas?

Bill Figueroa

----- Original Message -----
From:
To:
Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2009 1:04 AM
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Jose Esparsa (1848) who married Marta Ortiz

Hello Bill,

I'm a descendent of Jose Espars(z)a, my g.grandmother was Elodia Esparza
Sanchez (his grand daughter), do you know where I can find his parents,
siblings, etc.?

Where they at one point Ruiz de Esparza or Ruis De Esparsa?

Daniel sent me my g.grandmother's batism and shows "Esparza"

Thank You!

Victor Renteria

Comment

Hi Victor and Bill, well I have the flu right now but I can add to this topic, Jose's full name was Jose de Santa Ana Ruiz de Esparza, once I get better, Ill give you a report I have on your line, I have not been able to connect them to Lope, I do know your Esparzas were Spaniards, for sure, my grandpa grew up with them, he even knew Jose Santa ana Jr. son of Jose Santa Sr and Marta Ortiz. As to regard as Ruiz de Esparza, yes the Spanish Esparzas were Ruiz de Esparza originally when they crossed the Atlantic with time and centuries it was shortened down to just Esparza, this isnot always the case, people do still exist as Ruiz de Esparza today, these tend to be the more conservatives, jokes my grandpa. Also Elodia is twice Esparza, I believe her mother is daughter of Alejandro Sanchez and Francisca de Vedoy y Ruiz de Esparza. -Daniel Camino

> To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> From: dirtyworklandscape@sbcglobal.net
> Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 23:04:59 -0700
> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Jose Esparsa (1848) who married Marta Ortiz
>
> Hello Bill,
>
> I'm a descendent of Jose Espars(z)a, my g.grandmother was Elodia Esparza Sanchez (his grand daughter), do you know where I can find his parents, siblings, etc.?
>
> Where they at one point Ruiz de Esparza or Ruis De Esparsa?
>
> Daniel sent me my g.grandmother's batism and shows "Esparza"
>
> Thank You!
>
> Victor Renteria

Comment

Thanks Daniel, another thing I saw on the babtism los abuelos maternos de Elodia Esparza Sanchez was the name Francisca Avedoy, but that's all I know.

My father inlaw also mentions a person named "Nicha Avedoy or Vedoy que llegaron de la Villita" I will ask more questions later.

Victor Renteria

Comment

Hello Bill,

Yes, my grandfather was Estanislao Renteria Esparza, hijo de Romulo Renteria Garcia y Elodia Esparza Sanchez, hija de Jose Santa Ana Esparza Ortiz II and Catarina Sanchez Avedoy, hijo de Jose Santa Ana Esparza I ?? and Marta Ortiz Ordorica?

Victor Renteria

Published by Bill Figueroa – Fri, 2007-01-26 12:15 | Permalink

Comment

Daniel,

Here is another clue for your research. I think your ancestor Maria de la Luz Avila was baptized on 11 March 1832 at Parroquia del Sagrario in Aguascalientes. She was the daughter of Joaquin Avila and Feliciana Calvillo. Do you recognize these names? Keep this in mind, but don't forget to check her marriage record FIRST to confirm the names of her parents. For more information check Batch No. 604813 Source 0299468 Bautismos 1831-1832 Parroquia de el Sagrario, Aguascalientes.

Bill

Published by Bill Figueroa – Fri, 2007-01-26 11:45 | Permalink

Comment

Daniel,

Success!!! I found your ancestors Francisco Esparza and María de la Luz Avila. They were married in San José, Calvillo on 22 February 1857. Check Batch No. M604355 Sheet 00 Source Call No. 0635888 Marriages 1854-1874. The names of their parents are probably recorded in their marriage record. Let me know what you find out

Bill

Published by Bill Figueroa – Fri, 2007-01-26 09:30 | Permalink

Comment

Daniel,

I just got your last message that has more information about your ancestors. It looks like our messages crossed Cyberspace at the same time. I'll look up what I have for the area and let you know later.

Bill

Footnote translation assistance request. Calvillo, Ags. Ayuda de la traducción

Published by serna_david –
Forums
Genealogy Research

The following is from the May 11, 1845, baptism of Juana Serna, Rancho Agostadero, Calvillo, Ags. Baptism book 13, page 119, entry no. 164, IMAGE NO. 21 OF 145.

Comments

Published by Bill Figueroa – Sat, 2010-02-13 10:15 | Permalink

Comment

The paragraph reads as follows:

164 164
Agostadero Agostadero

M. Juana María Juana

P.S. Padre Santacruz (Priest)

Los dros. de Los derechos de
este bautismo se este bautismo se
remitieron al remitieron al
Sor. Cura de Señor Cura de
Jalpa Jalpa

Derechos are the fees paid (donated) for the baptism.

BILL FIGUEROA

Published by mendezdetorres – Sat, 2010-02-13 09:45 | Permalink

Comment

Yes, Agostadero is in Jalpa I have several ancestors from there they originally came from Juchipila and Nochistlan.

I think it just means the Cura from Jalpa was notified about the baptisms since tecnically they baptized their child

outside the parish.I have a couple of remitieron baptisms liek yours and I assumed it just meant they were from the

other place.

-Daniel

> To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> From: mooskies4@aol.com
> Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2010 05:06:42 -0800
> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Footnote translation assistance request. Calvillo, Ags. Ayuda de la traducción
>
> The following is from the May 11, 1845, baptism of Juana Serna, Rancho Agostadero, Calvillo, Ags. Baptism book 13, page 119, entry no. 164, IMAGE NO. 21 OF 145.
> THE column footnote reads as Follows :
> Agostadero M. Juana P.L. Los dros' de este bautP se remitieron al Sor. Cura de Jalpa.
> Agostadero is the Rancho which is in the Jurisdiccion de Jalpa, Zac. Perhaps I am misreading or dont understand the entry part Los dros' . Also what is the P.L. ?
>
> Lo que sigue es del 11 de mayo de 1845, bautismo de Juana Serna, Rancho Agostadero, Calvillo, Ags. Libro 13, página 119, entrada No. 164 del bautismo, IMAGEN NO. 21 DE 145. La nota al pie de la página de la columna lee como sigue:
> Agostadero M. Juana P.L. Los dros' sor del al del remitieron del SE del bautP de de este. Cura de Jalpa.
> Agostadero es el Rancho que está en el Jurisdiccion de Jalpa, Zac. Quizás estoy leyendo mal o no entiendo la pieza Los dros' de la entrada; tambien que significa P.L. ??

Lozano Research

Published by Ray Lozano –
Forums
Genealogy Research

Hello,

Comments

Published by resco16 – Thu, 2010-02-11 14:40 | Permalink

Comment

Hi Ray. I have been working on my family history and have come across the name Lozano. My family comes from Zacatecas and Jalisco but I have not found much luck finding anything on Lozano's for that region. My great great grandfather was named Gabino Escobedo and I believe his mother was named Maria Francisca Lozano. I will keep you names in mind and if I find or come across anything interesting I will share it with you. Good luck!

Published by Ray Lozano – Thu, 2010-02-11 17:39 | Permalink

Comment

Raymond Lozano

Hello Resco16,

Thank you for your message. I do appreciate your efforts and I too will keep your family's names in mind as I do my searches.

Ray

Jalisco on Google Street view.

Published by Steve G. Apodaca –
Forums
History, Culture and General Discussion

Probably most of you know about Google street view by now. This company already photographed most of the streets in the United States and now has gone international.

Comments

Published by Paul Gomez – Thu, 2010-02-11 09:45 | Permalink

Comment

Yes, this is a great tool for family historians! In fact so much so that one almost feels compelled to travel to the site in person, no?
------Original Message------
From: sgapodaca@yahoo.com
Sender: general-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
To: general@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
ReplyTo: general@nuestrosranchos.org
ReplyTo: sgapodaca@yahoo.com
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Jalisco on Google Street view.
Sent: Feb 11, 2010 8:11 AM

Probably most of you know about Google street view by now. This company already photographed most of the streets in the United States and now has gone international. I searched in Jalisco, and to my surprise, they have already photographed several cities and town. I was browsing the site and they show street images of pretty much all of Guadalajara, Zapopan and the metropolitan area. I also noticed that they have some of the main roads in some ranchos we are researching on this website:
Ameca
Villa Corona
Acatlan de Juarez
Chapala
Tala
Tequila
Ixtlahuacan del Rio
La Barca
Ocotlan
Tepatitlan
Atotonilco el Alto
Arandas
San Juan de los Lagos
Lagos de Moreno
Teul
Juchipila
Tlaltenango

Well, the list is long, so I'll stop here. I just thought some of you might be interested in checking the streets where your ancestors lived, or maybe rembember the time when you visited your rancho.
To check this, just go to http://maps.google.com/ . On the map on the right, zoom in to Jalisco, and then just grab and drag the little yellow guy over one of the highlighted roads and you are in!

Steve in NC

Nicolás Álvarez de la Cruz y Gonzalo Vargas.

Published by Ramirez –
Forums
Genealogy Research

Hola amigos, alguien de ustedes tiene información acerca de los ancestros de las siguientes parejas:

Nicolás Álvarez de la Cruz, cónyuge de Juana de Estrada, quienes debieron vivir en Ay

Comments

Published by mendezdetorres – Mon, 2010-02-08 18:15 | Permalink

Comment

Hola Jorge,
Yo soy descendiente de Nicolas Alvarez de la Cruz, mi linea es por su hijo Cristobal Alvarez de la Cruz, espanol.Quien caso a su prima Maria Alvarez de la Cruz el 25 de mayo de 1711 en Ayo el Chico. Esta ultima es hija de otra Maria Alvarez de la Cruz. Sospecho que son las misma familia? Tengo tres Alvarez de la Cruz que son del mismo tiempo. Una Maria que caso a don Miguel Gomez de Mendoza, Nicolas que caso a Juana de Estrada y la otra Maria cuyo esposo es don Pedro Diaz Castellanos. No se la relacion entre estos tres pero son del mismo epoca.
No se si este apellido fue compuesto por un matrimonio o ya era compuesto legitimamente.
Si encuentre un registro, aunque no se si quiza es posibilidad de ser parientes?
Diego Alvares caso Catalina de la Cruz el 23 de mayo de 1628 en el Sagrario Metropolitano de Guadalajara.
Enviame tu linea y la informacion que tienes de Nicolas y sus hijos, esposa etc.
Gracias,
Daniel
_________________________________________________________________
Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft’s powerful SPAM protection.
http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469226/direct/01/

Comment

Hi there Daniel,

My name is Welester G. Alvarado and I would like to ask you help me clarify something . My Great great Grandfather was Candelario Alvarado Luna de la Cruz from Saltillo , Coahuila born in 1792 .

I live in Monterrey, Nuevo Leon , Mexico and the genealogist here claim that all persons with the last name de la Cruz are natives that were given the last name by the priest .

My aunt tells me that on her fathers side they descend from spanish folks . What can you tell about this last name if you can .

Thanks,

Welester

>
> Hola Jorge,
> Yo soy descendiente de Nicolas Alvarez de la Cruz, mi linea es por su hijo Cristobal Alvarez de la Cruz, espanol.Quien caso a su prima Maria Alvarez de la Cruz el 25 de mayo de 1711 en Ayo el Chico. Esta ultima es hija de otra Maria Alvarez de la Cruz. Sospecho que son las misma familia? Tengo tres Alvarez de la Cruz que son del mismo tiempo. Una Maria que caso a don Miguel Gomez de Mendoza, Nicolas que caso a Juana de Estrada y la otra Maria cuyo esposo es don Pedro Diaz Castellanos. No se la relacion entre estos tres pero son del mismo epoca.
> No se si este apellido fue compuesto por un matrimonio o ya era compuesto legitimamente.
> Si encuentre un registro, aunque no se si quiza es posibilidad de ser parientes?
> Diego Alvares caso Catalina de la Cruz el 23 de mayo de 1628 en el Sagrario Metropolitano de Guadalajara.
> Enviame tu linea y la informacion que tienes de Nicolas y sus hijos, esposa etc.
> Gracias,
> Daniel
>

_________________________________________________________________
Hotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft.
http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469230/direct/01/

Comment

Having a name De La Cruz or de los Santos etc is not necessarily a native american last name.For example in Aguascalientes a very prominent Spanish family was DE LOS SANTOS Y BUSTO.I doubt every single DE LA CRUZ was indio. So far all my DE LA CRuz have been Spaniards,it's odd a genealogist would say that. True, it was common that the priest would give a last namesuch as Iglesias or Cruz or other symbols of the church but one cannot say so unless one knows the history of the family. Alvarez de la Cruz was a Spanish family in southern Los Altosthat extended to Guadalajara and northern Los Altos, with some members pouring into "alteno"Michoacan and "alteno" Guajanuato.

> From: hombrepi@hotmail.com
> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 02:00:34 +0000
> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Nicolás Álvarez de la Cruz - Daniel
>
>
> Hi there Daniel,
>
>
>
>
>
> My name is Welester G. Alvarado and I would like to ask you help me clarify something . My Great great Grandfather was Candelario Alvarado Luna de la Cruz from Saltillo , Coahuila born in 1792 .
>
>
>
> I live in Monterrey, Nuevo Leon , Mexico and the genealogist here claim that all persons with the last name de la Cruz are natives that were given the last name by the priest .
>
>
>
> My aunt tells me that on her fathers side they descend from spanish folks . What can you tell about this last name if you can .
>
>
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Welester
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >
>> Hola Jorge,
>> Yo soy descendiente de Nicolas Alvarez de la Cruz, mi linea es por su hijo Cristobal Alvarez de la Cruz, espanol.Quien caso a su prima Maria Alvarez de la Cruz el 25 de mayo de 1711 en Ayo el Chico. Esta ultima es hija de otra Maria Alvarez de la Cruz. Sospecho que son las misma familia? Tengo tres Alvarez de la Cruz que son del mismo tiempo. Una Maria que caso a don Miguel Gomez de Mendoza, Nicolas que caso a Juana de Estrada y la otra Maria cuyo esposo es don Pedro Diaz Castellanos. No se la relacion entre estos tres pero son del mismo epoca.
>> No se si este apellido fue compuesto por un matrimonio o ya era compuesto legitimamente.
>> Si encuentre un registro, aunque no se si quiza es posibilidad de ser parientes?
>> Diego Alvares caso Catalina de la Cruz el 23 de mayo de 1628 en el Sagrario Metropolitano de Guadalajara.
>> Enviame tu linea y la informacion que tienes de Nicolas y sus hijos, esposa etc.
>> Gracias,
>> Daniel
>>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Hotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft.
> http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469230/direct/01/

Comment

Daniel,

Do you have any documents dating back to Spain that show the last name de la Cruz ?

Welester

>
> Having a name De La Cruz or de los Santos etc is not necessarily a native american last name.For example in Aguascalientes a very prominent Spanish family was DE LOS SANTOS Y BUSTO.I doubt every single DE LA CRUZ was indio. So far all my DE LA CRuz have been Spaniards,it's odd a genealogist would say that. True, it was common that the priest would give a last namesuch as Iglesias or Cruz or other symbols of the church but one cannot say so unless one knows the history of the family. Alvarez de la Cruz was a Spanish family in southern Los Altosthat extended to Guadalajara and northern Los Altos, with some members pouring into "alteno"Michoacan and "alteno" Guajanuato.
> > Hi there Daniel,
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > My name is Welester G. Alvarado and I would like to ask you help me clarify something . My Great great Grandfather was Candelario Alvarado Luna de la Cruz from Saltillo , Coahuila born in 1792 .
> >
> >
> >
> > I live in Monterrey, Nuevo Leon , Mexico and the genealogist here claim that all persons with the last name de la Cruz are natives that were given the last name by the priest .
> >
> >
> >
> > My aunt tells me that on her fathers side they descend from spanish folks . What can you tell about this last name if you can .
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Welester
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> >> Hola Jorge,
> >> Yo soy descendiente de Nicolas Alvarez de la Cruz, mi linea es por su hijo Cristobal Alvarez de la Cruz, espanol.Quien caso a su prima Maria Alvarez de la Cruz el 25 de mayo de 1711 en Ayo el Chico. Esta ultima es hija de otra Maria Alvarez de la Cruz. Sospecho que son las misma familia? Tengo tres Alvarez de la Cruz que son del mismo tiempo. Una Maria que caso a don Miguel Gomez de Mendoza, Nicolas que caso a Juana de Estrada y la otra Maria cuyo esposo es don Pedro Diaz Castellanos. No se la relacion entre estos tres pero son del mismo epoca.
> >> No se si este apellido fue compuesto por un matrimonio o ya era compuesto legitimamente.
> >> Si encuentre un registro, aunque no se si quiza es posibilidad de ser parientes?
> >> Diego Alvares caso Catalina de la Cruz el 23 de mayo de 1628 en el Sagrario Metropolitano de Guadalajara.
> >> Enviame tu linea y la informacion que tienes de Nicolas y sus hijos, esposa etc.
> >> Gracias,
> >> Daniel
> >>
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Hotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft.
> > http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469230/direct/01/
> > -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
> > Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List
> >
> > To post, send email to:
> > research(at)nuestrosranchos.org
> >
> > To change your subscription, log on to:
> > http://www.nuestrosranchos.org
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection.
> http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469227/direct/01/

Comment

No but there is a noble family in Spain whose last name is "something" DE la Cruz, they areDukes of something. I know something doesnt help, but give me some time, ill look them up.According to my research they are the only nobles in Spain to have the DE LA CRUZ last name.I havent connected my Alvarez de la Cruz back to Spain....yet....the oldest I have in my notes:
En 25 de maio de 1711 en Ayo el Chico......Christoval Alvares, espanol, originario y vecino dela feligresia de Tepatitlan, siendo hixo lexitimo de Nicolas Alvares de la Crus y Juana de Estrada,difunta...con Mariana Alvares de la Crus, espanola, h. lex. de don Pedro Castellanos y Maria Alvaresde la Crus....todos espanoles....padrinos....etc
Nicolas deberia nacer en los principos de 1660s mas o menos. Tambien muestra importanciala familia Alvarez de la Cruz por lo tanto varios descendientes utilizan el apellido Alvarez in vezde su apellido paterno. Esta Mariana in vez de Castellanos uso el apellido materno.
> From: hombrepi@hotmail.com
> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 03:56:27 +0000
> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Nicolás Álvarez de la Cruz - Daniel
>
>
>
>
> Daniel,
>
>
>
> Do you have any documents dating back to Spain that show the last name de la Cruz ?
>
>
>
> Welester
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>>
>> Having a name De La Cruz or de los Santos etc is not necessarily a native american last name.For example in Aguascalientes a very prominent Spanish family was DE LOS SANTOS Y BUSTO.I doubt every single DE LA CRUZ was indio. So far all my DE LA CRuz have been Spaniards,it's odd a genealogist would say that. True, it was common that the priest would give a last namesuch as Iglesias or Cruz or other symbols of the church but one cannot say so unless one knows the history of the family. Alvarez de la Cruz was a Spanish family in southern Los Altosthat extended to Guadalajara and northern Los Altos, with some members pouring into "alteno"Michoacan and "alteno" Guajanuato.
>>> Hi there Daniel,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> My name is Welester G. Alvarado and I would like to ask you help me clarify something . My Great great Grandfather was Candelario Alvarado Luna de la Cruz from Saltillo , Coahuila born in 1792 .
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I live in Monterrey, Nuevo Leon , Mexico and the genealogist here claim that all persons with the last name de la Cruz are natives that were given the last name by the priest .
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> My aunt tells me that on her fathers side they descend from spanish folks . What can you tell about this last name if you can .
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Welester
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hola Jorge,
>>>> Yo soy descendiente de Nicolas Alvarez de la Cruz, mi linea es por su hijo Cristobal Alvarez de la Cruz, espanol.Quien caso a su prima Maria Alvarez de la Cruz el 25 de mayo de 1711 en Ayo el Chico. Esta ultima es hija de otra Maria Alvarez de la Cruz. Sospecho que son las misma familia? Tengo tres Alvarez de la Cruz que son del mismo tiempo. Una Maria que caso a don Miguel Gomez de Mendoza, Nicolas que caso a Juana de Estrada y la otra Maria cuyo esposo es don Pedro Diaz Castellanos. No se la relacion entre estos tres pero son del mismo epoca.
>>>> No se si este apellido fue compuesto por un matrimonio o ya era compuesto legitimamente.
>>>> Si encuentre un registro, aunque no se si quiza es posibilidad de ser parientes?
>>>> Diego Alvares caso Catalina de la Cruz el 23 de mayo de 1628 en el Sagrario Metropolitano de Guadalajara.
>>>> Enviame tu linea y la informacion que tienes de Nicolas y sus hijos, esposa etc.
>>>> Gracias,
>>>> Daniel
>>>>
>>>
>>> _________________________________________________________________
>>> Hotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft.
>>> http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469230/direct/01/
>>> -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
>>> Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List
>>>
>>> To post, send email to:
>>> research(at)nuestrosranchos.org
>>>
>>> To change your subscription, log on to:
>>> http://www.nuestrosranchos.org
>>
>> _________________________________________________________________
>> Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection.
>> http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469227/direct/01/

Comment

Jorge Luis,

I searched in PARES and found the record of a passenger named "Francisco de la Cruz" who travelled from Spain to Nueva España in 1538.

Sincerely

Jaime Alvarado

ES.41091.AGI/1.16419//PASAJEROS,L.2,E.4840
Titulo Nombre atribuido:
FRANCISCO DE LA CRUZ
Fecha Creación:
1538-04-03
Nivel de Descripción:
Unidad Documental Simple

indicador de lista cerradaÁREA DE CONTENIDO Y ESTRUCTURA

Alcance y Contenido:
FRANCISCO DE LA CRUZ, hijo de Bartolomé de la Cruz y de María Sánchez de Toledo, vecino de Valmaseda, a Nueva España.

indicador de lista cerradaÁREA DE CONDICIONES DE ACCESO Y UTILIZACIÓN

Índices de Descripción:
Cruz, Francisco de la
Nueva España
Sánchez de Toledo, María
Valmaseda
Instrumentos de Descripción:
Descripción incluida en CATALOGO DE PASAJEROS A INDIAS. VOLUMEN II (1535-1538)

indicador de lista abiertaÁREA DE DOCUMENTACIÓN ASOCIADA

Unidades Relacionadas por Procedencia:
CONTRATACION,5536,L.5,F.102

Comment

Como mencionas, Cristóbal Álvarez de la Cruz casó con María Álvarez de la Cruz, hija de Pedro Díaz Castellanos y María Álvarez de la Cruz, quienes son de la misma época que mi ancestros Nicolás Álvarez de la Cruz y Juana de Estrada; así también como de Miguel Gómez Hurtado de Mendoza y María Álvarez de la Cruz.

Esta última pareja la tengo aprox. unos 15 años atras que los dos mencionadas anteriormente.

Yo desciendo de la hija de Nicolás Álvarez de la Cruz y Juana de Estrada, llamada Micaela Estrada de la Cruz, no se porque ellá utilizó el apellido de su madre, imagino que era de mas importancia la familia Estrada que la Álvarez de la Cruz, pero no estoy seguro. Micaela casó con Diego Vargas Romero, hijo de Gonzalo de Vargas y María Romero. De ellos desciende la familia de la Paz y Castro de Tepatitlán.

¿Tu no tienes información de Nicolás de la Paz y Castro quien casó dos veces, la primera con Ana María Franco y la segunda en 1770 con Juana Teresa Vargas Estrada, hija de los antes mencionados Diego Vargas y Micaela Estrada de la Cruz?

Saludos.
Jorge Luis Ramírez Gómez.

_________________________________________________________________
Enciende tu hotness con Hotmail
www.hotmailhotness.com.mx

Comment

Me equivoque de este dato habia un Juan Pedro que fue bautizado 27 de junio de 1672, hijo deprimer mujer de Pedro Diaz Castellanos, Ana de Comparan.

> From: mendezdelcamino@live.com
> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2010 20:22:12 -0800
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Nicolás Álvarez de la Cruz y Gonzalo Vargas.
>
>
> Pedro Diaz Castellanos fue bautizado el 5 de jul de 1657 en Ocotlan. No se de donde sale el Diaz.
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection.
> http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469227/direct/01/

Joseph Martin de PENA=Maria Rufina XIMENES

Published by Paul Gomez –
Forums
Genealogy Research

The persons above are my maternal 5th Great Grandparents. They were married 08 Nov 1761 in Teocaltiche, Jalisco (Nuestra Senora de los Dolores). I have found 1 child, Franciso born about 1757.

Comments

Published by R.A.Ricci (not verified) – Sun, 2010-01-31 22:00 | Permalink

Comment

My marin dela pena losa were from teolcaltiche during this time.
------Original Message------
From: paul.gomez@verizon.net
Sender: research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
ReplyTo: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Joseph Martin de PENA=Maria Rufina XIMENES
Sent: Jan 31, 2010 4:37 PM

The persons above are my maternal 5th Great Grandparents. They were married 08 Nov 1761 in Teocaltiche, Jalisco (Nuestra Senora de los Dolores). I have found 1 child, Franciso born about 1757. He married Maria Alvina de Villalpando

Source: LDS Film No. 0639756, Batch No. M602488. I am seeking there birth/baptismal dates, and location - Joseph Martine de Pena and Maria Rufina Ximenes.

Can anyone help me?

Thank you.

Published by Esther Jordan Lopez – Sun, 2010-01-31 20:15 | Permalink

Comment

Paul,

I found these names but they are from another state:

Joseph Martin Pena, ch. 3 Feb 1709, San Martin Obispo, Alfajayucan, Hidalgo,
Mexico. His parents: Agustin Martin and Lorenza Pena. [Batch 612698 (1662-1735),
Ser. # 05492, film # 0669192], and

Maria Rufina Ximenes, ch 11 Sep 1728, La Asuncion, Pachuca de Soto, Hidalgo,
Mexico - Her parents: Antonio Ximenes and Maria Pascuala. [Batch C613805, Ser
#04044 (1719-1729), film # 0266513].

Esther Jordan Lopez

p.s. Paul, I haven't had time to sort out my Villarruel family but hope to do it
soon.  Thanks again.

On February 1, 2010 at 12:37 AM paul.gomez@verizon.net wrote:

> The persons above are my maternal 5th Great Grandparents. They were married 08
> Nov 1761 in Teocaltiche, Jalisco (Nuestra Senora de los Dolores). I have found
> 1 child, Franciso born about 1757. He married Maria Alvina de Villalpando
>
> Source: LDS Film No. 0639756, Batch No. M602488. I am seeking there
> birth/baptismal dates, and location - Joseph Martine de Pena and Maria Rufina
> Ximenes.
>
> Can anyone help me?
>
> Thank you.

Comment

Thank you, Esther! Thanks to you I am back on the trail.

-----Original Message-----
From: research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
[mailto:research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org] On Behalf Of
esther@enhanced.org
Sent: Sunday, January 31, 2010 7:04 PM
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Joseph Martin de PENA=Maria Rufina XIMENES

Paul,

I found these names but they are from another state:

Joseph Martin Pena, ch. 3 Feb 1709, San Martin Obispo, Alfajayucan, Hidalgo,
Mexico. His parents: Agustin Martin and Lorenza Pena. [Batch 612698
(1662-1735),
Ser. # 05492, film # 0669192], and

Maria Rufina Ximenes, ch 11 Sep 1728, La Asuncion, Pachuca de Soto, Hidalgo,
Mexico - Her parents: Antonio Ximenes and Maria Pascuala. [Batch C613805,
Ser
#04044 (1719-1729), film # 0266513].

Esther Jordan Lopez

p.s. Paul, I haven't had time to sort out my Villarruel family but hope to
do it
soon.  Thanks again.

On February 1, 2010 at 12:37 AM paul.gomez@verizon.net wrote:

> The persons above are my maternal 5th Great Grandparents. They were
married 08
> Nov 1761 in Teocaltiche, Jalisco (Nuestra Senora de los Dolores). I have
found
> 1 child, Franciso born about 1757. He married Maria Alvina de Villalpando
>
> Source: LDS Film No. 0639756, Batch No. M602488. I am seeking there
> birth/baptismal dates, and location - Joseph Martine de Pena and Maria
Rufina
> Ximenes.
>
> Can anyone help me?
>
> Thank you.

Comment

Dear Esther,

I found three children born to Antonio Ximenes and Maria Pascuala. If you
do not have those names, and information, I will gladly e-mail them to you.

Paul Gomez

-----Original Message-----
From: research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
[mailto:research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org] On Behalf Of
esther@enhanced.org
Sent: Sunday, January 31, 2010 7:04 PM
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Joseph Martin de PENA=Maria Rufina XIMENES

Paul,

I found these names but they are from another state:

Joseph Martin Pena, ch. 3 Feb 1709, San Martin Obispo, Alfajayucan, Hidalgo,
Mexico. His parents: Agustin Martin and Lorenza Pena. [Batch 612698
(1662-1735),
Ser. # 05492, film # 0669192], and

Maria Rufina Ximenes, ch 11 Sep 1728, La Asuncion, Pachuca de Soto, Hidalgo,
Mexico - Her parents: Antonio Ximenes and Maria Pascuala. [Batch C613805,
Ser
#04044 (1719-1729), film # 0266513].

Esther Jordan Lopez

p.s. Paul, I haven't had time to sort out my Villarruel family but hope to
do it
soon.  Thanks again.

On February 1, 2010 at 12:37 AM paul.gomez@verizon.net wrote:

> The persons above are my maternal 5th Great Grandparents. They were
married 08
> Nov 1761 in Teocaltiche, Jalisco (Nuestra Senora de los Dolores). I have
found
> 1 child, Franciso born about 1757. He married Maria Alvina de Villalpando
>
> Source: LDS Film No. 0639756, Batch No. M602488. I am seeking there
> birth/baptismal dates, and location - Joseph Martine de Pena and Maria
Rufina
> Ximenes.
>
> Can anyone help me?
>
> Thank you.

Comment

Yes, Paul, I am interested in these children.  Thank you.
 
Esther Jordan

On February 8, 2010 at 10:22 PM Paul Gomez wrote:

> Dear Esther,
>
> I found three children born to Antonio Ximenes and Maria Pascuala.  If you
> do not have those names, and information, I will gladly e-mail them to you.
>
> Paul Gomez
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> [mailto:research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org] On Behalf Of
> esther@enhanced.org
> Sent: Sunday, January 31, 2010 7:04 PM
> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Joseph Martin de PENA=Maria Rufina XIMENES
>
> Paul,
>
> I found these names but they are from another state:
>
> Joseph Martin Pena, ch. 3 Feb 1709, San Martin Obispo, Alfajayucan, Hidalgo,
> Mexico. His parents: Agustin Martin and Lorenza Pena. [Batch 612698
> (1662-1735),
> Ser. # 05492, film # 0669192], and
>
> Maria Rufina Ximenes, ch 11 Sep 1728, La Asuncion, Pachuca de Soto, Hidalgo,
> Mexico - Her parents: Antonio Ximenes and Maria Pascuala. [Batch C613805,
> Ser
> #04044 (1719-1729), film # 0266513].
>
> Esther Jordan Lopez
>
> p.s. Paul, I haven't had time to sort out my Villarruel family but hope to
> do it
> soon.  Thanks again.
>
>
>
> On February 1, 2010 at 12:37 AM paul.gomez@verizon.net wrote:
>
> > The persons above are my maternal 5th Great Grandparents. They were
> married 08
> > Nov 1761 in Teocaltiche, Jalisco (Nuestra Senora de los Dolores). I have
> found
> > 1 child, Franciso born about 1757. He married Maria Alvina de Villalpando
> >
> > Source: LDS Film No. 0639756, Batch No. M602488. I am seeking there
> > birth/baptismal dates, and location - Joseph Martine de Pena and Maria
> Rufina
> > Ximenes.
> >
> > Can anyone help me?
> >
> > Thank you.
> > -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
> > Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List
> >
> > To post, send email to:
> > research(at)nuestrosranchos.org
> >
> > To change your subscription, log on to:
> > http://www.nuestrosranchos.org

Published by R.A.Ricci (not verified) – Sun, 2010-01-31 18:45 | Permalink

Comment

Search as if the last name marin de la pena losa. I had an ancestor martin pena on one document and it turned out to be marin de la pena losa arenas.
------Original Message------
From: paul.gomez@verizon.net
Sender: research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
ReplyTo: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Joseph Martin de PENA=Maria Rufina XIMENES
Sent: Jan 31, 2010 4:37 PM

The persons above are my maternal 5th Great Grandparents. They were married 08 Nov 1761 in Teocaltiche, Jalisco (Nuestra Senora de los Dolores). I have found 1 child, Franciso born about 1757. He married Maria Alvina de Villalpando

Source: LDS Film No. 0639756, Batch No. M602488. I am seeking there birth/baptismal dates, and location - Joseph Martine de Pena and Maria Rufina Ximenes.

Can anyone help me?

Thank you.

Research Digest, Vol 49, Issue 5

Published by fromGalveston –
Forums
Genealogy Research

Yo tiengo

Martin Ochoa-de-Elizalde cc Maria Navarro-Rodriguez
hijos
Salvador Ochoa-de-Elizalde cc Catalina de-la-Garza-Falcon
Juana de Ochoa-Ruelas cc Andres Gonzalez-Quintanilla

Juana nacio

Posting Topics / Publicando Temas

Published by arturoramos –
Forums
Announcements and Events

Espanol sigue abajo.

With all of the new membership, it is worth repeating some basic guidlines that we would like members to follow when posting messages to the Nuestros Ranchos forums:

Comments

Published by matusalem – Fri, 2010-02-05 08:31 | Permalink

Comment

Hace tiempo, solicité ayuda sobre nacimientos y matrimonios en Sain Alto...ojalá alguien me pueda ayudar pus no sé de donde pueda sacar la informcion.

Mis ancestros son:

Bruno Hernandez Perez b) 6 febrero 1888 Sain Alto Zacatecas

Jesus Hernandez + Carmen Perez de ellos no tengo fecha de nacimiento ni de casamiento.

Saludos Matu

Research Digest, Vol 48, Issue 18

Published by fromGalveston –
Forums
Genealogy Research

Beatriz Lopez-de-Elizalde is the daughter of Don Juan Lopez-de-Elizalde-y-Aberruza
and Dona Leonor Becerra-y-Sanchez-de-Mendoza

John Inclan

________________________________
From: "resear

Comments

Published by matusalem – Thu, 2010-02-04 18:15 | Permalink

Comment

Pregunto a John Inclan....los Elizalde que aparecen en Nuevo Leon, los que se casan con las hijas de Blas de la Garza Falcon ....supongo que vienen de estos Elizalde de Zacatecas....tiene Ud. alguna genealogia de este apellido?
Matusalem

Busco appellidos Perez & Gonzalez , De la Torre & Garcia Pinedo en Jalisco y Zacatecas

Published by IsabelPerez –
Forums
Genealogy Research

Hola soy Isabel,

Comments

Published by IsabelPerez – Wed, 2010-02-03 00:16 | Permalink

Comment

Hablando con mi tia me dijo que encontro el acta de bautismo de mi abuela Maria de Jesus De la Torre. En el acta tiene que los abuelos de Maria de Jesus son Leonardo De la torre nacido 1849 en Huejuguilla y Emeteria Rodriguez nacida 1852 en Huejuguilla. Leonardo y Emeteria se casaron el 21 de Noviembre de 1874 en Monte Escobedo, Zacatecas.

Conforme a familysearch.org

Padres de Leonardo De la Torre son:
Ramon De la Torre
Maria Felix

Padres de Emeteria Rodriguez son:
Nabor Rodriguez
Jesus Garcia
..........................
Tambien me dijo el otro apellido de la mama de mi abuelo Bartolo, y es Josefina Gonzalez Samaripa.

La acta de bautismo y otros documentos no los voy a obtener hasta que mi tia venga para la boda de mi hermana en Abril, por lo pronto es lo que tengo.

Published by arturoramos – Thu, 2010-01-28 06:15 | Permalink

Comment

Isabel:

Gracias por dar tu historia familiar tan detallada ya que en la genealogia no buscamos apellidos si no personas... ya veras que cuando llegues a siglos antigos los apellidos cambian o se intercambian muchisimo.

Te tengo un par de sugerencias pare encontrar los padres de Eleuterio y Josefina:

Ancestry.com tiene una base de datos con los registros de cruzadas de la frontera entre Mexico y EEUU desde 1905 a 1957. Hay dos entradas para Eleuterio Perez. Muchas bibliotecas tienen acceso gratuito a esta base de datos. Los registros muchas veces incluyen informacion familiar incluso nombres de padres.

http://search.ancestry.com/search/db.aspx?dbid=1082

La Administracion de Seguro Social tiene una base de datos de personas fallecidas y que encontrando el numero de seguro social de una persona se puede pedir su registro que tiene los nombres de sus padres.

http://ssdi.rootsweb.ancestry.com/

Finalmente, podrias ponerte en contacto con el registro de Greenlee County, Arizona, para obtener el certificado de fallecimiento de Eleuterio:

http://www.co.greenlee.az.us/recorder/

Finalmente, una busqueda en http://www.familysearch.org por bautismos en Jalisco entre 1866 y 1876 nos da:

Results for: Eleuterio Perez, Birth/Christening, 1866 - 1876, Jalisco, Mexico

1. ELEUTERIO PEREZ ARREOLA - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Christening: 28 FEB 1869 San Miguel, Cocula, Jalisco, Mexico
2. Eleuterio Peres - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Christening: 23 FEB 1870 San Francisco De Asis,Capala, , Jalisco, Mexico
3. ELEUTERIO PEREZ BAUTISTA - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Christening: 28 FEB 1870 Teuchitlan, Jalisco, Mexico
4. ELEUTERIO DEL REFUGIO PEREZ MANRIQUEZ - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Christening: 22 FEB 1872 Mexticacan, Jalisco, Mexico
5. ELEUTERIO PEREZ TAVARES - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Christening: 17 MAR 1875 Santa Maria De Los Lagos, Lagos De Moreno, Jalisco, Mexico
6. ELEUTERIO PEREZ MARTINES - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Christening: 20 FEB 1876 San Miguel Arcangel, Yahualica, Jalisco, Mexico

El numero 5, que parece atinar a los datos que diste, pero no se sabe si sea la persona en cuestion con certitud, tiene los siguientes datos:

Father: CLARO PEREZ
Mother: EUSEBIA TAVARES

Matrimonio de Isidro Sanchez y Santos Reynoso

Published by ppchuy –
Forums
Genealogy Research

Hola a todos los miembros de nuestros ranchos, me gustaria saber si ustedes tienen conocimiento de este matrimonio ya que no e podido encotrar nada, agradecere mucho si alguien me puede ayudar

Comments

Published by ppchuy – Tue, 2010-02-02 09:30 | Permalink

Comment

----- Original Message ----
From: Alicia Carrillo
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Sun, January 31, 2010 5:15:13 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Matrimonio de Isidro Sanchez y Santos Reynoso

Hola Jose,

No das suficiente informacion acerca de esta pareja. De donde son o eran, en que periodo o de que años. De cual estado de Mexico?

Alicia,
San Jose, Ca

________________________________
From: "josejime@yahoo.com"
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Sun, January 31, 2010 2:48:50 PM
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Matrimonio de Isidro Sanchez y Santos Reynoso

Hola a todos los miembros de nuestros ranchos, me gustaria saber si ustedes tienen conocimiento de este matrimonio ya que no e podido encotrar nada, agradecere mucho si alguien me puede ayudar -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List

To post, send email to:
research(at)nuestrosranchos.org

To change your subscription, log on to:
http://www.nuestrosranchos.org

Published by oldcar53 – Sun, 2010-01-31 16:30 | Permalink

Comment

Hola Jose,

No das suficiente informacion acerca de esta pareja. De donde son o eran, en que periodo o de que años. De cual estado de Mexico?

Alicia,
San Jose, Ca

________________________________
From: "josejime@yahoo.com"
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Sun, January 31, 2010 2:48:50 PM
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Matrimonio de Isidro Sanchez y Santos Reynoso

Hola a todos los miembros de nuestros ranchos, me gustaria saber si ustedes tienen conocimiento de este matrimonio ya que no e podido encotrar nada, agradecere mucho si alguien me puede ayudar -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List

To post, send email to:
research(at)nuestrosranchos.org

To change your subscription, log on to:
http://www.nuestrosranchos.org

Busco estos apellidos y nombres en otros arboles genealogicos.

Published by Galahad6 –
Forums
Genealogy Research

Nestor Soto o Zoto 1866-1938
Demetria Macias 18??-1971
Fidel Ramos ????-????
Maria Vega ????-????

Maurilio Gomez ????-1984
Jesus Ordorica Olmos 1904?- 1941

Comments

Published by mendezdetorres – Tue, 2010-01-26 22:30 | Permalink

Comment

DE Que lugar? Se escucha de Calvillo, Ags?
Soto y Ordorica especialmente eran muy prominante en Teocaltiche yo vengo de estas familias.
-Daniel

> To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> From: Galahad6@yahoo.com
> Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 20:01:19 -0800
> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Busco estos apellidos y nombres en otros arboles genealogicos.
>
> Nestor Soto o Zoto 1866-1938
> Demetria Macias 18??-1971
> Fidel Ramos ????-????
> Maria Vega ????-????
>
> Maurilio Gomez ????-1984
> Jesus Ordorica Olmos 1904?- 1941
>
> Si alguien los tienes talvez se podria juntar nuestras familias.
>
> muchas gracias!!
>
> Victor

Comment

Daniel Gracias por contestar. Si mira ellos nacieron cerca de Calvillo, en el municipio de Jalpa Zacatecas.
El rancho tiene nombre de Santa Juana y parese ser que el rancho se llamaba o le dicen tambien San Juan Bautista.

Jesus Ordorica Olmos murio al dar a luz en 1941 a los 37 anos de edad.
Su Hija que aun vive se acuerda de la Revolucion Mexicana y es ella la que me da muchos datos. Todos ellos buscan a un pariente que se fue a vivir a Leon Guanajuato y nunca supieron de el.
Todos ellos en el Rancho de Santa juana son Familia y son Soto y Gomez.

Victor Vasquez

Comment

Podias enviar me un arbol genealogica? Asi puedo ver como te puedo ayudar especificamente?
Gracias.
jaja ya sabia que eran de ese lugar, (Valle de Huejucar) que es Tabasco, Huanusco, Jalpa, Calvillo y casi la frontera con Teocaltiche!
-Daniel
> To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> From: Galahad6@yahoo.com
> Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 18:50:57 -0800
> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Soto y Ordorica
>
> Daniel Gracias por contestar. Si mira ellos nacieron cerca de Calvillo, en el municipio de Jalpa Zacatecas.
> El rancho tiene nombre de Santa Juana y parese ser que el rancho se llamaba o le dicen tambien San Juan Bautista.
>
> Jesus Ordorica Olmos murio al dar a luz en 1941 a los 37 anos de edad.
> Su Hija que aun vive se acuerda de la Revolucion Mexicana y es ella la que me da muchos datos. Todos ellos buscan a un pariente que se fue a vivir a Leon Guanajuato y nunca supieron de el.
> Todos ellos en el Rancho de Santa juana son Familia y son Soto y Gomez.
>
>
> Victor Vasquez

Comment

Victor,

Acaso sabes donde nacio Jesus Ordorica Olmos?, dices que ellos nacieron cerca de Calvillo pero no se si te refieres a Jesus o a sus hijos o a los otros descendientes.

Pregunto porque en Nochistlan Zacatecas hay, hubo y sigue habiendo muchos Olmos y Ordoricas. Inclusive, uno de mis tios politicos, casado con mi tia es Saldivar Ordorica tambien de Nochistlan.

Yo pertenesco a la familia Olmos de Nochistlan connectados con algunos Olmos de Jalpa.

Alicia Avelar Olmos.
San Jose, Ca

To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
From: Galahad6@yahoo.com
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 18:50:57 -0800
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Soto y Ordorica

Si mira ellos nacieron cerca de Calvillo, en el municipio de Jalpa Zacatecas.
El rancho tiene nombre de Santa Juana y parese ser que el rancho se llamaba o le dicen tambien San Juan Bautista.

Jesus Ordorica Olmos murio al dar a luz en 1941 a los 37 anos de edad.
Su Hija que aun vive se acuerda de la Revolucion Mexicana y es ella la que me da muchos datos. Todos ellos buscan a un pariente que se fue a vivir a Leon Guanajuato y nunca supieron de el.
Todos ellos en el Rancho de Santa juana son Familia y son Soto y Gomez.

Victor Vasquez

Comment

Hola Alicia,

Creo que Jesus Ordorica Olmos es de Jalpa Zac. pero no estoy seguro ya que no se sabe nada de ella. La mayoria de ellos nacieron en el municipio de Jalpa Zac, que queda como a 10 minutos de Calvillo Agua. alomejor tambien de Nochistlan.

Victor Vasquez

Comment

Por lo visto se quemo casi todo. la mayoria de la gente no tiene sus actas de nacimiento. me dicen los locales que se quemaron pero en que guerra? los cristeros o la revolucion?

Victor Vasquez

La Fabrica

Published by joseluis –
Forums
Genealogy Research

Hi - I found some baptismal records of my great-great grandfather, and they
said he was from "La Fabrica" close to Guadalupe, Zacatecas, I think. Has
anyone heard of this?

Comments

Published by meef98367 – Sun, 2010-01-31 18:45 | Permalink

Comment

I think someone on this forum has mentioned this Fabrica before. I think it used to be a place where they made cloth -- a textile plant.

Emilie
Port Orchard, WA
----- Original Message -----
From: de la Torre family tree
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Sunday, January 31, 2010 4:35 PM
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] La Fabrica

Hi - I found some baptismal records of my great-great grandfather, and they
said he was from "La Fabrica" close to Guadalupe, Zacatecas, I think. Has
anyone heard of this? Is it a colonia or a rancho in Zacatecas?

Published by Paul Gomez – Sun, 2010-01-31 18:45 | Permalink

Comment

It looks like "La Fabrica" is part of the Municipality of Mazapil,
Zacatecas. It has 362 inhabitants.

-----Original Message-----
From: research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
[mailto:research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org] On Behalf Of de la Torre
family tree
Sent: Sunday, January 31, 2010 4:36 PM
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] La Fabrica

Hi - I found some baptismal records of my great-great grandfather, and they
said he was from "La Fabrica" close to Guadalupe, Zacatecas, I think. Has
anyone heard of this? Is it a colonia or a rancho in Zacatecas?

Tlaxcalans

Published by meef98367 –
Forums
Genealogy Research

Arturo,

I finally was able to bring up that letter of 1591 from the Viceroy Luis de Velasco to the King, but it has eight pages.

Comments

Published by arturoramos – Tue, 2010-01-26 14:26 | Permalink

Comment

Would there be someone who would volunteer to extract out (and perhaps even transliterate into modern Spanish) the census of the 400 Tlaxcalan families who migrated to the Gran Chichimeca?

Comment

I still can't open the link

-----Original Message-----
From: research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org [mailto:research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org] On Behalf Of arturo.ramos2@gmail.com
Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 3:27 PM
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Tlaxcalan Census

Would there be someone who would volunteer to extract out (and perhaps even transliterate into modern Spanish) the census of the 400 Tlaxcalan families who migrated to the Gran Chichimeca?

Comment

Maria,

I just sent you the .pdf file to your e-mail address. It will take a while to load unless you have a fast connection. Plus your computer needs to be able to open .pdf files.

Emilie
Port Orchard, WA
----- Original Message -----
From: Maria Cortes
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 1:31 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Tlaxcalan Census

I still can't open the link

Comment

Got it thanks

-----Original Message-----
From: research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org [mailto:research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org] On Behalf Of Emilie Garcia
Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 8:34 PM
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Tlaxcalan Census

Maria,

I just sent you the .pdf file to your e-mail address. It will take a while to load unless you have a fast connection. Plus your computer needs to be able to open .pdf files.

Emilie
Port Orchard, WA
----- Original Message -----
From: Maria Cortes
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 1:31 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Tlaxcalan Census

I still can't open the link

Comment

TRASLATION TO englisH down

COLECCION DE DOCUMENTOS PARA LA HISTORIA DE SAN LUIS POTOSI
CUENTA POR SUS NOMBRES (CENSO) DE LOS INDIOS DE TLAXCAL QUE VINIERO A POBLAR ENTRE LOS CHICHIMECAS

EN EL RIO DE SAN JUAN (HOY SAN JUAN DEL RIO QUERETARO)EL 6 DE JULIO DE 1591, AGUSTIN DE HINOJOSA VILLABICENCIO, TENIENTE DE CAPITAN GENERAL PARA LAS NUEVAS POBLACIONNES DE CHICHIMECAS DEL EXCELENTISIMO SEÑOR DON LUIS DE VELASCO, CABALLERO DE LA ORDEN DE SANTIAGO, VIRREY, GOBERNADOR, CAPITAN GENERAL DE ESTA NUEVA ESPAÑA, PRESIDENTE DE LA REAL AUDIENCIA... ANTE MI EL NOTARIO, DIJO:
QUE EL GOBERNADOR, ALCALDES Y PRINCIPALES (CACIQUES) DE LA CIUDAD DE TLAXCALA OFRECIERON AL SEÑOR VIRREY 400 INDIOS CASADOS VECINOS Y ORIGINARIOS DE DICHA CIUDAD(TLAXCALA), PARA CON ELLOS HACER (FUNDAR) DICHAS POBLACIONES (LAS NUEVAS POBLACIONES DE LOS CHICHIMECAS), LOS CUALES SALIERON Y SE DIVIDIERON EN 4 "CUADRILLAS DE CARROS"? CON SUS MUJERES E HIJOS EN DICHA CIUDAD (SAN JUAN DEL RIO)DONDE HABIAN DE ENTREGARSE (PONERSE A LAS ORDENES)AL TENIENTE(AGUSTIN DE HINOJOSA). ALGUNOS "JUSTOS RESPETOS"(RESPETADOS) NO SE ENTREGARON(PONERSE A LAS ORDENES).

POR QUE ES JUSTO, PARA QUE SE SEPA Y SE ENTIENDA, SE AVERIGÜE (INVESTIGUE)SI SE ENTREGARON LOS 400 INDIOS Y SI TODOS VIENEN EN EL CONTINGENTE...(PARA ESO) MANDÓ HACER LA CUENTA DE TODOS ELLOS POR SUS NOMBRES, CON SUS MUJERES E HIJOS, DE SUS BARRIOS, PARCIALIDADES (ORIGEN Y VECINDAD)Y A QUIE TRAÍN POR CAPITAN, PARA QUE EN TODO TIENPO CONSTE LA VERDAD. SE HIZO LA CUENTA DE LA MANERA SIGUIENTE:

.....
(ENSEGUIDA VIENE LA LISTA DE LOS NOMBRES DE LOS INDIOS Y EN QUE "CARRO"(CONTINGENTE) VENIAN...

ALGUIEN MAS QUE COLABORE?
_________________________________________________________________________________________
eN ESPAÑOL ARRIBA
(THIS IS AN AUTOMATIC TRALATION)

COLLECTION OF DOCUMENTS FOR THE HISTORY OF SAN LUIS POTOSI
ACCOUNT FOR THEIR NAMES (census) of the Indians of Tlaxcala that cometh to populate BETWEEN CHICHIMECAS

IN RIO DE SAN JUAN (TODAY SAN JUAN DEL RIO QUERETARO) ON 6 JULY 1591, AGUSTIN DE HINOJOSA VILLABICENCIO, lieutenant OF captain-general for the "New Settlement of CHICHIMECAS OF HIS EXCELLENCY LUIS DE VELASCO, Knight of the Order of Santiago, Viceroy, Governor, CAPTAIN GENERAL OF THIS NEW SPAIN, PRESIDENT OF THE HEARING REAL... TO ME THE NOTARY, SAID:
THE GOVERNOR, MAYORS AND PRINCIPAL (Chief) of the city of Tlaxcala offer the Lord Viceroy 400 Indians MARRIED NEIGHBORS AND ORIGIN OF SAID CITY (ZONE), FOR THEM TO DO (FOUND) THESE Settlement (THE NEW Settlement OF CHICHIMECAS) and they came up and divided into 4 "CUADRILLAS WAGON? OF WOMEN AND THEIR CHILDREN IN SAID CITY (SAN JUAN DEL RIO) WHERE were to be released (himself at the orders) to Lieutenant (AGUSTIN DE HINOJOSA). SOME "decent respect (respect) is not given (himself at the orders).

WHY IS JUST, TO BE KNOW AND UNDERSTAND, HE LEARN (searching) IF THE 400 GIVE INDIANS AND IF ALL COME IN THE QUOTA ... (With this intention) He (lieutenant VILLABICENCIO)mandates ACCOUNT FOR YOUR NAME ALL OF THEM WITH their wives and children, its neighborhoods, partial (ORIGIN AND NEIGHBORHOOD) AND QUIE Train by captain, allways EVIDENCED THROUGHOUT THE TRUTH. ACCOUNT WAS MADE AS FOLLOWS:

.....
(next COMES THE LIST OF NAMES AND THAT THE INDIANS "CART", come

Comment

Here is a slightly different English translation .... hope it makes sense
... original is below

Collection of documents of the history of San Luis Potosi.
Recorded by names (census) of the Tlaxcal Indians that came to settle with
the Chichimecas.

In El Rio de San Juan (today San Juan del rio Queretaro) on the 6th of July
of 1561, Agustin de Hinojosa Villabicencio, Lieutenant of Captain-General
for the new settlement of Chichimecas of his Excellency Luis de Velasco,
Knight of the Order of Santiago, Viceroy, Governor, Captain General of New
Spain, President of the Real Audencia… Before me the notary said: That the
governor, mayors and elders (chiefs) of the city of Tlaxcala offered Senor
Virrey 400 married Indians all original citizens of said city (Tlaxcala),
for the establishment of said settlement (the new Chichimeca settlement),
who left and were divided into 4 wagon groups with their women and children
in said city (San Juan del Rio) where they were supposed to deliver
themselves (submit to orders) to the Lieutenant (Agustin de Hinojosa). Some
respectfully did not deliver themselves (did not submit to orders).

Because it is just that it be known and understood, it must be determined
(investigate) if the 400 indians delivered themselves and if all are apart
of the contingent … (with that intent) he (lieutenant Agustin de Hinojosa)
mandates an account with names including women and children, neighborhood,
details (origin and neighborhood) and chief. In order for the truth to be
known for all time, the count was taken in the following manner:

--------------------------------------------------
From:
Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 7:03 AM
To:
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] TRASLATION TO englisH

> TRASLATION TO englisH down
> COLECCION DE DOCUMENTOS PARA LA HISTORIA DE SAN LUIS POTOSI
> CUENTA POR SUS NOMBRES (CENSO) DE LOS INDIOS DE TLAXCAL QUE VINIERO A
> POBLAR ENTRE LOS CHICHIMECAS
>
> EN EL RIO DE SAN JUAN (HOY SAN JUAN DEL RIO QUERETARO)EL 6 DE JULIO DE
> 1591, AGUSTIN DE HINOJOSA VILLABICENCIO, TENIENTE DE CAPITAN GENERAL PARA
> LAS NUEVAS POBLACIONNES DE CHICHIMECAS DEL EXCELENTISIMO SEÑOR DON LUIS DE
> VELASCO, CABALLERO DE LA ORDEN DE SANTIAGO, VIRREY, GOBERNADOR, CAPITAN
> GENERAL DE ESTA NUEVA ESPAÑA, PRESIDENTE DE LA REAL AUDIENCIA... ANTE MI
> EL NOTARIO, DIJO:
> QUE EL GOBERNADOR, ALCALDES Y PRINCIPALES (CACIQUES) DE LA CIUDAD DE
> TLAXCALA OFRECIERON AL SEÑOR VIRREY 400 INDIOS CASADOS VECINOS Y
> ORIGINARIOS DE DICHA CIUDAD(TLAXCALA), PARA CON ELLOS HACER (FUNDAR)
> DICHAS POBLACIONES (LAS NUEVAS POBLACIONES DE LOS CHICHIMECAS), LOS CUALES
> SALIERON Y SE DIVIDIERON EN 4 "CUADRILLAS DE CARROS"? CON SUS MUJERES E
> HIJOS EN DICHA CIUDAD (SAN JUAN DEL RIO)DONDE HABIAN DE ENTREGARSE
> (PONERSE A LAS ORDENES)AL TENIENTE(AGUSTIN DE HINOJOSA). ALGUNOS "JUSTOS
> RESPETOS"(RESPETADOS) NO SE ENTREGARON(PONERSE A LAS ORDENES).
> POR QUE ES JUSTO, PARA QUE SE SEPA Y SE ENTIENDA, SE AVERIGÜE
> (INVESTIGUE)SI SE ENTREGARON LOS 400 INDIOS Y SI TODOS VIENEN EN EL
> CONTINGENTE...(PARA ESO) MANDÓ HACER LA CUENTA DE TODOS ELLOS POR SUS
> NOMBRES, CON SUS MUJERES E HIJOS, DE SUS BARRIOS, PARCIALIDADES (ORIGEN Y
> VECINDAD)Y A QUIE TRAÍN POR CAPITAN, PARA QUE EN TODO TIENPO CONSTE LA
> VERDAD. SE HIZO LA CUENTA DE LA MANERA SIGUIENTE:
>
>
> ..... (ENSEGUIDA VIENE LA LISTA DE LOS NOMBRES DE LOS INDIOS Y EN QUE
> "CARRO"(CONTINGENTE) VENIAN...
>
> ALGUIEN MAS QUE COLABORE?
> _________________________________________________________________________________________

Comment

Thank you Miguel for taking on the transciption of this very important document and thank you Angela for such a beautiful and clear translation.

Now we just need some additional volunteers to transcribe the list of names...

Please members, think of all that you get from this community and if you have some time to spare, please consider giving a bit of it back for the sake of the community.

Comment

When you start looking at the actual listing of the names on the 1591 San Juan del Rio census you will run into two interesting words/phrases:

"iten"
"con un y hijo"

We need to decide what these two items refer to. I have gotten a few possible clues sent via email to me. Thanks to Luis Garcia, Patricia Sanchez Rau and Gregory Schaaf

yten = tambien [ditto]
itencopa = by word or command of
ihuan = y [and]
itehuan = nosotros [us]
iten = a la orrilla de [on the edge of]

I'm also wondering if what we have come to accept as common misspellings of Spanish names might not have been deliberate spellings to indicate an indigenous background. For example, from the 1692 Census of El Paso del Norte we see the following "misspelled" names: Lazaro, Mizquia, Ynigo, Xiron, Jacintha, Xptobal, Ysidro, Ysabel, Luxan, Luxero, Xaramillo and Truxillo.

Maybe these spellings are a clue that we need to follow up on possible Tlaxcalan ancestors.

Stanley A Lucero
Madera, California

Published by arturoramos – Thu, 2010-01-28 17:06 | Permalink

Comment

Angelina Markle has volunteered to head up the transcription and transliteration of the Tlaxcalan 400 Families Census. If you would like to help, please contact her through the contact form available at the Nuestros Ranchos website:

http://www.nuestrosranchos.org/user/2396

In reference to Stanley's questions about the word "iten" and name spellings:

"iten" was a common word used in lists of people, chattle, etc. in these older documents and has the first meaning presented by Stanley, i.e. "tambien." The etymology of the English word "item" is the same as this word. It would be the equivalent of a bullet point in our modern day...

The "common misspellings" are not misspellings at all. You have to remember that this document was written in 1591, long before the Castillian language had been chosen as the lingua franca of New Spain and long before Castillian spelling was standardized. Thus the spelling is the spelling of those names as the scribe saw fit, probably from his own experience in his own Spanish dialect and educational tradition, i.e. a mixture of Latin/Greek/Asturian or Catalan, etc...

- Ynigo is a common name today in the Basque country
- Lazaro is the modern spelling of a common name, i.e. Lazaro Cardenas
- Jacintha would be the Greek spelling of the name Jacinta, much like Theresa retained the silent H in Spanish until the language reforms.
- Xptobal is a very common abbreviation for Cristobal, i.e. X stands for Christ.
- Ysidro and Ysabel were likewise the common spellings of Isidro and Isabel prior to the language reforms
- The X was commonly used to signal a "J" sound in pre-reform Castillian spelling and a "SH" sound in Catalan so Luxan, Luxero, Xaramillo and Truxillo were common spellings of what today is spelled Lujan, Lucero, Jaramillo and Trujillo.

Interesting about the use of "X" since Nahuatl languages have very frequent use of the "SH" sound so when adapting the Roman alphabet to the language, X was chosen to represent that sound, as it does in Catalan and Basque. Thus Mexico was pronounced "Me-SHI-ko" and Tlaxcala was pronounced "Tlash-KA-la."

With the language reforms there was an attempt to change all of these Xs to Js but doing so would make the words loose their original etymology and pronounciation, i.e. we would have Tlajcala. While Mexico is now commonly pronounced "Me-HEE-ko" the derivative words Mexica or Chicano retain the "SH" so I would have to be a "Jicano."

We recently had an interesting discussion on this and the spelling of Mexico as Mejico...

http://www.nuestrosranchos.org/node/18112

Comment

The Diccionario panhispánico de dudas by Real Academia Española states that the words dixo (dijo) o traxo (trajo) were pronounced [dísho] o [trásho]. The change in pronunciation from "SH" to "J" started in the 16th century and was common in mid-17th century. This also means that the "SH" sound wasn't limited to Catalan and Basque.

3. En la Edad Media, la grafía x representaba un sonido palatal fricativo sordo, cuya pronunciación era muy similar a la de la sh inglesa o la ch francesa actuales. Así, palabras como dixo (hoy dijo) o traxo (hoy trajo) se pronunciaban [dísho] o [trásho] (donde [sh] representa un sonido parecido al que emitimos cuando queremos imponer silencio). Este sonido arcaico se conserva en el español de México y de otras zonas de América en palabras de origen náhuatl, como Xola [shóla] o mixiote [mishióte] (no en Xochimilco, en donde la x suena como /s/), y en la pronunciación arcaizante de ciertos apellidos que conservan su forma gráfica antigua, como Ximénez o Mexía.

4. El sonido medieval antes descrito (→ 3) evolucionó a partir del siglo xvi hasta convertirse en el sonido velar fricativo sordo /j/, que en la escritura moderna se representa con las letras j o g (ante e, i) (→ j y g, 2.2). No obstante, la grafía arcaica con x se conserva hoy en varios topónimos americanos, como México, Oaxaca, Texas (→ México, Oaxaca, Texas), con sus respectivos derivados mexicano, oaxaqueño, texano, etc., y en variantes americanas de algunos nombres propios de persona, como Ximena, o apellidos como los anteriormente citados (→ 3). No debe olvidarse que la pronunciación correcta de estas voces es con sonido /j/ ([méjiko], [oajáka], [téjas], [jiména]), y no con sonido /ks/ (Marca de incorrección.[méksiko], Marca de incorrección.[oaksáka], Marca de incorrección.[téksas], Marca de incorrección.[ksiména]). También quedan restos de esta x arcaica en algunos topónimos españoles que hoy se pronuncian corrientemente con sonido [k + s], como Almorox, Borox, Guadix y Sax. Sus gentilicios respectivos (almorojano, borojeño, guadijeño y sajeño) demuestran que, en su origen, la x que contienen se pronunciaba /j/.

http://buscon.rae.es/dpdI/SrvltGUIBusDPD?lema=x
http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/X

Antonio de Nebrija wrote the first work on the study of the Castillian language in 1492. In this work he uses the words such as traxo and dixo. He defines the pronunciation of the X is as a "CS" This would be the equivalent of "KS" I take that to mean he never used the "SH" sound. The work can be read in it's entirety at http://www.antoniodenebrija.org/indice.html

Armando

Comment

Dear Group,
After three years of searching with no evidence of my grgrandfather Rosalio Onate's existence other than a 1917 visit to the US through the border crossing, I thought I'd try something I've done before with no results: Google! Lo and behold two entries from http://www.ags.gob.mx/archivo/fondo/fondo_historico.asp dating 1927 and 1932 show what appears to be business entries. However, I can't seem to get beyond those entries and find out whether it was posted by the city or state government, and how to access the complete petition/request forms. Has anyone in the group accessed this source. Since the 1930 Aguascalientes, Ags. census is not available, at least these entries told me that he was alive and still in business in 1932. Any help from anyone would be appreciated. Alice BB
> _________________________________________________________________________________________

Published by stanleyalucero – Sat, 2010-01-23 11:49 | Permalink

Comment

I wasn't able to open up the letter. Can you help me find it?
I should be able to read it.
Stanley A Lucero

Comment

Stanley,

Yes, I couldn't open the link from Arturo's post either at first; it would say "Timed out", etc.

If you just enter the URL only as far as httP://pares.mcu.es then you can go to "Busquedas Sencillas, then type in "Virrey Luis de Velasco, Hijo" and the dates as From 1591 to 1591, it will bring up some choices. Choose Cartas Del virrey Luis de Velasco (etc), and then look for the letter that is numbered N 53 in that list and click on it. It brings up nine images of a letter that is beautifully hand-written in old Spanish. It is very legible, but I don't understand the language and some of the abbreviations.

Emilie
Port Orchard, WA

----- Original Message -----
From: stanley.lucero@comcast.net
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Saturday, January 23, 2010 10:49 AM
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Tlaxcalans in Zacatecas

I wasn't able to open up the letter. Can you help me find it?
I should be able to read it.
Stanley A Lucero

Comment

I can make out most of the words. Many of the words are grouped together as one word instead of separated. The words are also spelled differently from what we are used to.

See the bottom of page 4.

Los indios de Tlaxcala, quen la ... cartas ...dise que ..van

Page 5
apartandose para yr a las poblausnoes de los chichimecas, caminan ya, ya ivan 10 cho dias que sali cinco leguas de la ciudad averlos ya aminarlos y haceles prover de todo lo nessario. Van en todo lo que yo les he podido bien acomadados y parese que ya van de su gusto y ... leega Dios tenga estemedio tan aprovado y pedido de todos el sucesso que se disea y aungue siempre que la dificultal deber todos Indios y los chichimecos tan baruaros que con los unos y los otros no puede a ver entera seguridad. La que yo puedo tener es aver hecho de mi parte lo que en esto puedo, y hasta qui ay de tantos anos a esta parte asido tan de part.toso, ..mito los buenos efectos a Dios que los puede dar, que como en ...

Stanley A Lucero
Madera, California

Comment

Arturo,

Thanks for bringing up this interesting letter to us. I went through the same paragraphs that Stanley and Emily referred to, and transcribed them into modern Spanish for those who have difficulty reading old Spanish. The paragraph about the Tlaxcalans reads as follows:

Original transcription:

"Los indios de Tlaxcala, quen las ultimas cartas q' scrivii a VMd dise que estavan aprestandose para yr a las poblacioes de los chichimecas, caminan ya, y aura ocho dias que sali cinco leguas desta Ciudad averlos y a animarlos y hacerles prover de todo lo nessario. Van en todo lo que yo he podido bien acomodados y parese que ya van de su gusto y voluntad Plega Dios tenga este medio tan aprovado y pedido de todos el sucesso que se dessea y aunque siempre que da la dificultad de ser todos Indios y los chichimecos tan barvaros que con los unos y los otros no puede aver entera seguridad. La que yo puedo tener es aver hecho de mi parte lo que en esto puedo, q' hasta aqui y de tantos años a esta parte a sido tan dificultoso, Remito los buenos efectos a Dios que los puede dar, que como en cosa tan de su servicio justamente se deben sperar."

"En las Vacantes de Alcaldes del crimen desta Real Audiencia, assido necesario...." etc. (aquí pasa a otro tema)

Modern Spanish version:

"Los indios de Tlaxcala, que en las últimas cartas que escribí a Vuestra Merced dice que estaban aprestándose para ir a las poblaciones de los chichimecas, caminan ya, y hará ocho días que salí cinco leguas de esta Ciudad a verlos y a animarlos y hacerles proveer de todo lo necesario. Van, en todo lo que yo he podido, bien acomodados, y parece que ya van de su gusto y voluntad. Plega (ver nota) Dios tenga este medio tan aprobado y pedido de todos el suceso que se desea,
y aunque siempre que da dificultad de ser todos los Indios y los chichimecos tan bárbaros que con los unos y los otros no puede haber entera seguridad. La que yo puedo tener es haber hecho de mi parte lo que en esto puedo, que hasta aquí y de tantos años a esta parte ha sido tan dificultoso. Remito los buenos efectos a Dios quien los puede dar, que como en cosa tan de su servicio justamente se deben esperar.

En las Vacantes de Alcaldes del crimen de esta Real Audiencia, ha sido necesario..." etc. (at this point he changes the subject)

Nota: Me parece que "Plega Dios" significa decir una plegaria a Dios.

Bill Figueroa
Dallas, Texas

Comment

Thank you so much, Bill. Now we can really enjoy that letter. I am going to try and print it out and keep it with your translations.

It is interesting to me that the Chicimecas, who I thought the mestizos in Zacatecas like my father were descended from, are described as "barbaros". That is the term I find in records of my Christianized Piro/Manso/Tiwa ancestors from Paso del Norte and other mission villages to describe the Apaches who raided and massacred them from time to time until the US Army captured their last chiefs and brought them under control in 1886.

I read that the Pueblo tribes are a Uto-Aztecan people, and I can see that because they were found by Onate to already be wearing clothes and settled in adobe pueblos with stone kivas that reminded me somewhat of way the pyramids in Mexico were constructed. The Apaches had never made pottery, or farmed or built adobe pueblos or stone kivas. I was told that the Tewa Pueblo at Taos has been continually occupied for over 1000 years, and before that there were similar dwellings in some caves or cliffs.

Emilie
Port Orchard, WA
----- Original Message -----
From: Bill Figueroa
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Saturday, January 23, 2010 10:55 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Tlaxcalans in Zacatecas

Arturo,

Thanks for bringing up this interesting letter to us. I went through the same paragraphs that Stanley and Emily referred to, and transcribed them into modern Spanish for those who have difficulty reading old Spanish. The paragraph about the Tlaxcalans reads as follows:

Original transcription:

"Los indios de Tlaxcala, quen las ultimas cartas q' scrivii a VMd dise que estavan aprestandose para yr a las poblacioes de los chichimecas, caminan ya, y aura ocho dias que sali cinco leguas desta Ciudad averlos y a animarlos y hacerles prover de todo lo nessario. Van en todo lo que yo he podido bien acomodados y parese que ya van de su gusto y voluntad Plega Dios tenga este medio tan aprovado y pedido de todos el sucesso que se dessea y aunque siempre que da la dificultad de ser todos Indios y los chichimecos tan barvaros que con los unos y los otros no puede aver entera seguridad. La que yo puedo tener es aver hecho de mi parte lo que en esto puedo, q' hasta aqui y de tantos años a esta parte a sido tan dificultoso, Remito los buenos efectos a Dios que los puede dar, que como en cosa tan de su servicio justamente se deben sperar."

"En las Vacantes de Alcaldes del crimen desta Real Audiencia, assido necesario...." etc. (aquí pasa a otro tema)

Modern Spanish version:

"Los indios de Tlaxcala, que en las últimas cartas que escribí a Vuestra Merced dice que estaban aprestándose para ir a las poblaciones de los chichimecas, caminan ya, y hará ocho días que salí cinco leguas de esta Ciudad a verlos y a animarlos y hacerles proveer de todo lo necesario. Van, en todo lo que yo he podido, bien acomodados, y parece que ya van de su gusto y voluntad. Plega (ver nota) Dios tenga este medio tan aprobado y pedido de todos el suceso que se desea,
y aunque siempre que da dificultad de ser todos los Indios y los chichimecos tan bárbaros que con los unos y los otros no puede haber entera seguridad. La que yo puedo tener es haber hecho de mi parte lo que en esto puedo, que hasta aquí y de tantos años a esta parte ha sido tan dificultoso. Remito los buenos efectos a Dios quien los puede dar, que como en cosa tan de su servicio justamente se deben esperar.

En las Vacantes de Alcaldes del crimen de esta Real Audiencia, ha sido necesario..." etc. (at this point he changes the subject)

Nota: Me parece que "Plega Dios" significa decir una plegaria a Dios.

Bill Figueroa
Dallas, Texas

Comment

I invite you to visit my website at www.lucerito.net. Click on the Genealogy tab and then on the Tlaxcalan link.

I wrote a short article entitled "Tlaxcalans in New Mexico" that was published in Nuestras Raices out of Pueblo, Colorado. Marc Simmons was one of my main sources of information.

I am continueing to search for more information about the Tlaxcalans. Some of the offshoots include the places they colonized, los matachines, Seven Caves - Seven Tribes, Tonatiuh - the Sun Stone, the 400 families, etc.

I'm also working with Gregory Schaff from Santa Fe to develop materials for the New Mexico public schools regarding their indigenous history. The materials will be offered free of charge to the schools.

What started all of this was my discovery that my ancestor, Juan de Leon Brito, was a Tlaxcalan Indian. He was the son of Juan Brito and Antonia Ursula Duran, 1st marriage to Sebastiana Madrid. 2nd marriage to Maria Granillo. I have several ancestors from San Gabriel del Yunque founded by Onate in 1598. I'm hoping that by looking for records in Zacatecas I might be able to connect to more ancestors.

My family was in the Penasco Valley in Taos County as a part of the Trampas Land Grant since 1751.

Thank you Bill for finishing decoding the 1591 letter.

Stanley A Lucero

Comment

As Lucero points out, the census was July 6, 1591 and it was taken at San Juan del Rio, Queretaro by Agustin de Hinojosa Villavicencio. There is a great history of this initial migration and the subsequent migrations of the descendants of those first 400 families further north into Texas:

http://www.ejournal.unam.mx/ehn/ehn24/EHN02401.pdf

Comment

Gregory Schaaf, Ph.D., Director, Center for Indigenous Arts & Cultures, Santa Fe; Indians@nets.com
Stanley Lucero and I are working on a Tlaxcalteca Chronology, Tlaxcalteca Biographical Profiles, and a Tlaxcalteca Bibliography for a free, non-profit educational website for school children. Please feel free to submit entries and we will let you know when the site gets posted.
Regarding the current discussion on Tlaxcalans in Zacatecas, here is one entry from the chronology:
June 6-9, 1591 – The Tlaxcalan Indians began their migrations northward from villages around Tlaxcala de Xicohhtencatl An estimated 1008 Tlaxcalan Indians from 400 families, organized by 5 captains began a trek northward. The Tlaxcalan Indians initially weree composed of four groups from their four hometowns, but then were re-organized into six groups to go to six destinations:
*On June 6, approximately 228 Tlaxcalan Indians from Lordship of San Francisco Ocotelulco [site of the largest Mercado [marketplace] in the region], organized by Captain Lucas, departed northward to the silver mines of the Kingdom of Nueba Galicia, Zacatecas, Mexico today. They founded the Tlaxcalilla barrio in the town of Pines. After the battle of San Andres Teul, the Tlascalan survivors emigrated to Chalchihuites and later also founded the towns of Nombre de Dios and Suchil, Mexico
*On June 7, approximately 245 Tlaxcalan Indians from St. Stephen Tizatlan, organized by Captain Buenaventura de Paz, departed northward to the Kingdom of Nueva Vizcaya, today Nuevo Leon [founded the towns of San Miguel de Aguayo and Bustamante, Mexico], Durango, and Coahuila, Mexico. On September 12, 1521 the Tlaxcalan Indians founded San Esteban de la Nueva Tlaxcala Tizatlan, near the Villa Creole in Saltillo in 1598, the town of Santa Maria de las Parras [today Parras de la Fuente], and in 1676 populated San Francisco Coahuila, San Juan del Carrizal, Cuatro Cienegas, San Buenaventura, Santa Rosa, San Bernardino of Candera and Arteaga, Mexico.
*On June 9, approximately 207 Tlaxcalan Indians from Kings Manor Quiahuiztlan, organized by Captain Lucas Tellez, departed northward to Kingdom of Nueva Galicia, now Jalisco, Mexico. They founded Villa de San Luis de Colotlan of New Quihuiztlan, Tlaxcala
*On June 9, approximately 228 Tlaxcalan Indians from the Lordship of Santiago, organized by Captain Tepeticpac Francisco Vasquez and Captain Joaquin Paredes, departed northward to San Miguel Mexquitic in the Kingdom of Nueva Galicia, now San Luis Potosi, Mexico [arrived November 2, 1591].
The four villages were within a five-mile radius on one another.
Today, over 1 million people live in the Mexican state of Tlaxcala, an area of over 1,500 square miles.
The total was 1008 Tlaxcalan Indians organized by 5 captains.
SOURCE: [Rosalva Delgadillo Torres, “La Migración Tlaxcalteca Del Siglo XVI.”]
PS. We are especially searching for people who are believed to be descendant from the Tlaxcaltecas and other "Mexican Indians" who once lived in Barrio de Analco in Santa Fe, New Mexico.

Comment

I count not open this file it gave me an error message.

-----Original Message-----
From: research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org [mailto:research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org] On Behalf Of arturo.ramos2@gmail.com
Sent: Monday, January 25, 2010 11:27 PM
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Tlaxcalan Census 1591

The 1591 census of the 400 Tlaxcalan families that colonized the Gran Chichimeca appears in a book titled Documentos para la historia de San Luis Potosi and is downloadable in the Files Section at:

http://www.nuestrosranchos.org/node/18423

Comment

Maria Cortes wrote " I count not open this file it gave me an error
message."

At first I had the same problem ...However, I found that you had to be
logged onto Nuestros Ranchos first - then the link works without any
problems.

-Angelina-

Comment

I tried to open it from within (logged) Nuestro Ranchos pages and still getting the error.

-----Original Message-----
From: research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org [mailto:research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org] On Behalf Of Angelina Markle
Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 8:36 AM
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Tlaxcalan Census 1591

Maria Cortes wrote " I count not open this file it gave me an error
message."

At first I had the same problem ...However, I found that you had to be
logged onto Nuestros Ranchos first - then the link works without any
problems.

-Angelina-

Comment

Thanks, Stanley,

I was interested because both my mother's (Marquez) and my father's (Olague) ancestors were in the Onate party. The Marquez stayed to settle, but the Olague abandoned Onate and returned to Zacatecas as soon as they could.

In all the early censuses I have from 1601 to 1693 about Paso del Norte, the Lower El Paso Valley (San Lorenzo, Senecu, Ysleta, Socorro), and the Spanish and Pueblo Indian settlements in New Mexico, I see those names you mention and others: Lucero, Baca, Brito, Cobos, Archuleta, Gongora, Isasi, Ladron de Guevara, Enriques, Tafoya, Holguin, Telles, Robledo, Madrid. I am a Madrid descendant as well as Apodaca, Candelaria, Garcia de Noriega, Lucero de Godoy, Maese, Mondragon, Perea, Saenz, Lujan, Xiron, Valencia, Granillo, Sedillo, Romero, Avalos, Varela, Duran, Pedraza, Fuentes, del Rio, Carabajal, Fresqui, Brusuelas, Tamaris, Delfin and others. My Provencios came later from Albacete in Spain.

Most of these early settlers had servants in their homes described in the early censuses as "native Mexicans" or "indian" but it doesn't list the tribe. I know my great-grandfather from Senecu was a Piro, so I knew my mother had Pueblo Indian blood, but I never thought she could also have Tlaxcalan, and so might have my father who was born in Jerez, Zacatecas. What a small world.

I have read the interesting articles about the Tlaxcalans by John Schmal and Marc Simmons; those are online.

Our moderator Joseph Puentes also has another online website similar to Nuestros Ranchos that is for the descendants of those who settled Nuevo Mexico from Juarez to Northern New Mexico. It is called Ciudad Juarez at ciudad_juarez@yahoogroups.com. Unfortunately, it hasn't garnered the activity that Ranchos has.

Emilie
Port Orchard, WA

----- Original Message -----
From: stanley.lucero@comcast.net
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Saturday, January 23, 2010 9:07 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Tlaxcalans in Zacatecas

I can make out most of the words. Many of the words are grouped together as one word instead of separated. The words are also spelled differently from what we are used to.

See the bottom of page 4.

Los indios de Tlaxcala, quen la ... cartas ...dise que ..van

Page 5
apartandose para yr a las poblausnoes de los chichimecas, caminan ya, ya ivan 10 cho dias que sali cinco leguas de la ciudad averlos ya aminarlos y haceles prover de todo lo nessario. Van en todo lo que yo les he podido bien acomadados y parese que ya van de su gusto y ... leega Dios tenga estemedio tan aprovado y pedido de todos el sucesso que se disea y aungue siempre que la dificultal deber todos Indios y los chichimecos tan baruaros que con los unos y los otros no puede a ver entera seguridad. La que yo puedo tener es aver hecho de mi parte lo que en esto puedo, y hasta qui ay de tantos anos a esta parte asido tan de part.toso, ..mito los buenos efectos a Dios que los puede dar, que como en ...

Stanley A Lucero
Madera, California

Comment

Incorrect Spelling is only a relatively new idea. In the 1600's it was understood that you may write a word with a slight variation without changing the meaning. Most people could not read and write and those that did, were not concerned with only one spelling.
------Original Message------
From: stanley.lucero@comcast.net
Sender: research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
ReplyTo: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Tlaxcalans
Sent: Jan 28, 2010 1:26 PM

When you start looking at the actual listing of the names on the 1591 San Juan del Rio census you will run into two interesting words/phrases:

"iten"
"con un y hijo"

We need to decide what these two items refer to. I have gotten a few possible clues sent via email to me. Thanks to Luis Garcia, Patricia Sanchez Rau and Gregory Schaaf

yten = tambien [ditto]
itencopa = by word or command of
ihuan = y [and]
itehuan = nosotros [us]
iten = a la orrilla de [on the edge of]

I'm also wondering if what we have come to accept as common misspellings of Spanish names might not have been deliberate spellings to indicate an indigenous background. For example, from the 1692 Census of El Paso del Norte we see the following "misspelled: names: Lazaro, Mizquia, Ynigo, Xiron, Jacintha, Xptobal, Ysidro, Ysabel, Luxan, Luxero, Xaramillo and Truxillo.

Maybe these spellings are a clue that we need to follow up on possible Tlaxcalan ancestors.

Stanley A Lucero
Madera, California

AREIZAGA/ARIZAGA

Published by Eva –
Forums
Genealogy Research

Hola a todos,
Estoy investigando el apellido Areizaga/Arizaga. Uno de Los registros mas
antiguos que he encontrado es el de matrimonio de VICENTE ARIZAGA DEL RIO

What ever happened to the missing 1719-1733 baptismal records from Aguascalientes?

Published by Bill Figueroa –
Forums
Genealogy Research

To: all members of Nuestros Ranchos

Comments

Published by matusalem – Thu, 2010-01-28 11:13 | Permalink

Comment

Hola...busco ancestros del estado de Zacatecas y Aguascalientes, de apellido ELIZALDE y BORREGO....alguien me puede ayudar???

GREGORIO ELIZALDE b) 1823 Aguascalientes
+1848 Aguascalientes

ANACLETA SALAS b) 1827 Aguascalientes

Published by meef98367 – Thu, 2009-12-31 13:00 | Permalink

Comment

Bill-

Thank you so much for the trouble and expense you went through to find this out for us. I had traced my husband's family back to Encarnacion de Diaz, and other places in Jalisco, then found in records in microfilms mention that many of them had come from Aquascalientes originally in the early 1700s. I had looked and looked in many Aguacalientes films and never found them, now I know why.

Emilie
Port Orchard, WA
----- Original Message -----
From: bill_figueroa@usa.net
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2009 9:59 AM
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] What ever happened to the missing 1719-1733baptismal records from Aguascalientes?

To: all members of Nuestros Ranchos

Te following excerpts are from a letter I sent to the Family History Library in Salt Lake City, UT in August of 2008. It contains important information for those focusing their research in Aguascalientes. Since I didn't get a reply or noticed any corrective action taken, I decided to post it in this forum for the benefit of all members of Nuestros Ranchos.

"For several years I had been trying to find the baptismal record of my 4th great grandfather Vicente Ruiz de Esparza, but soon realized that it was missing. As a matter of fact, all the baptisms of “Españoles” from 1719-1733 from “Parroquia de la Asunción de Aguascalientes” seemed to be missing. I searched over and over for these records, carefully combing through a number of microfilms, to no avail. Finally, in desperation, I decided to take a trip to Aguascalientes in central Mexico (I live in Texas) to find out if the book had been lost or never filmed by the LDS."

"The original records are kept by the Catholic Church in a building adjacent to the Cathedral. Unfortunately, these records are not accessible to the public, as the Church is trying to preserve them for future generations. An exception was made in my case, considering that I had embarqued in such a long journey to look for a specific record. It took the librarian less than 30 minutes to locate the record, which he found in an “insert” with records for the 1781-1786 time period. The following paragraphs will explain what happened."

"Sometime during the late 19th or early 20th century the Catholic Church in Aguascalientes decided to organize hundreds of records by rebinding them with new hardcovers. The number on the original volumes, numbered sequentially #1 thru ?? was displayed on the spine of the new books. It is important to mention that in colonial times the records for descendants of Spaniards or “Españoles” were kept in separate books from those of “Indios, Negros, Mulatos, Mestizos, Castizos...etc.” Record Book #12 consisted of baptisms for “Españoles” for the years 1719-1733. This book was inadvertedly left out and later bound with books #39-43 which were for baptisms for the years 1781-1786. This book covers the periods 1781-1733 and 1719-1733 as shown on the enclosed pictures." (not included here)

"The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Days Saints’ crew that microfilmed these records in the 1970s must have realized that they were out of order because they kept them separate. The records for 1781-1786 are included in microfilm #299445. The baptisms for “Españoles” for 1719-1733 ended up in microfilm #299530, erroneously identified as being from La Cieneguilla. La Cieneguilla is a rural community and farming area some 20 miles SW of Aguascalientes."

"The baptismal records for 1719-1733 have been extracted and recently included in the new FamilySearch Pilot site, improperly identifying each record as being from La Cieneguilla instead of Aguascalientes. This is very confusing and should be corrected."

"I have found other errors that I plan to report separately, but do not include them in this letter to keep it simple. If you have any questions do not hesitate to contact me."

Regards,

BILL FIGUEROA

Published by margeval – Thu, 2009-12-31 12:15 | Permalink

Comment

Wow!!!! I don't have any ancestors in Aguascalientes but you are a
real blessing to this group, Bill! Without your sleuthing and
determination, we would not have known where to find the assets and
documents named in your letter. What a wonderful New Year's gift!
Sincerely, Marge:)

On Dec 31, 2009, at 11:59 AM, bill_figueroa@usa.net wrote:

To: all members of Nuestros Ranchos

Te following excerpts are from a letter I sent to the Family History
Library in Salt Lake City, UT in August of 2008. It contains
important information for those focusing their research in
Aguascalientes. Since I didn't get a reply or noticed any corrective
action taken, I decided to post it in this forum for the benefit of
all members of Nuestros Ranchos.

"For several years I had been trying to find the baptismal record of
my 4th great grandfather Vicente Ruiz de Esparza, but soon realized
that it was missing. As a matter of fact, all the baptisms of
“Españoles” from 1719-1733 from “Parroquia de la Asunción de
Aguascalientes” seemed to be missing. I searched over and over for
these records, carefully combing through a number of microfilms, to no
avail. Finally, in desperation, I decided to take a trip to
Aguascalientes in central Mexico (I live in Texas) to find out if the
book had been lost or never filmed by the LDS."

"The original records are kept by the Catholic Church in a building
adjacent to the Cathedral. Unfortunately, these records are not
accessible to the public, as the Church is trying to preserve them for
future generations. An exception was made in my case, considering
that I had embarqued in such a long journey to look for a specific
record. It took the librarian less than 30 minutes to locate the
record, which he found in an “insert” with records for the 1781-1786
time period. The following paragraphs will explain what happened."

"Sometime during the late 19th or early 20th century the Catholic
Church in Aguascalientes decided to organize hundreds of records by
rebinding them with new hardcovers. The number on the original
volumes, numbered sequentially #1 thru ?? was displayed on the spine
of the new books. It is important to mention that in colonial times
the records for descendants of Spaniards or “Españoles” were kept in
separate books from those of “Indios, Negros, Mulatos, Mestizos,
Castizos...etc.” Record Book #12 consisted of baptisms for
“Españoles” for the years 1719-1733. This book was inadvertedly left
out and later bound with books #39-43 which were for baptisms for the
years 1781-1786. This book covers the periods 1781-1733 and 1719-1733
as shown on the enclosed pictures." (not included here)

"The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Days Saints’ crew that
microfilmed these records in the 1970s must have realized that they
were out of order because they kept them separate. The records for
1781-1786 are included in microfilm #299445. The baptisms for
“Españoles” for 1719-1733 ended up in microfilm #299530, erroneously
identified as being from La Cieneguilla. La Cieneguilla is a rural
community and farming area some 20 miles SW of Aguascalientes."
"The baptismal records for 1719-1733 have been extracted and recently
included in the new FamilySearch Pilot site, improperly identifying
each record as being from La Cieneguilla instead of Aguascalientes.
This is very confusing and should be corrected."

"I have found other errors that I plan to report separately, but do
not include them in this letter to keep it simple. If you have any
questions do not hesitate to contact me."

Regards,

BILL FIGUEROA

Subscribe to